#7. Owning Your Story: The Black Cop - Gamal Turawa
“Our stories belong to the world”
Gamal Turawa has unlocked some amazing conversations by sharing his experiences, and is now the subject of Bafta-awarded film The Black Cop. He joins the podcast to talk about his experience making the film and the moments in his life it depicts, as well as giving up control, compassion for others, imposter syndrome and meeting people where they are in their journey. He also shares some personal stories from childhood, the angels he’s met along the way, and how that’s shaped his life’s work. Gamal is a brilliant guest and we hope listening to his story is as powerful for you as it was for us.
Listen to full episode :
-
Gamal won the BAFTA! Since recording, The Black Cop won the 2022 BAFTA Short Film Award. You can watch it for yourself here. Massive congratulations to all at The Guardian and to G.
“This painting is going to meet people that I will never meet.” What an incredible example of a value creating mindset; the realisation that our expression and our whole self is of value to others. We have such an opportunity to make a difference with everything we do in our lives. How do we make things better around here? We have a blog post on this very topic which you can read here.
Gamal Turawa spent 25 years in the London Metropolitan Police Service, delivering programmes on Diversity, Inclusion and Personal Development whilst becoming the UK's first openly Gay Black police officer along the way. His time with the police included a five year secondment to the National Police Improvement Agency where he trained in excess of 3000 officers from all over the world. He is now the founder, managing director and Lead facilitator for Purple Frog Connections, dedicated to “Creating Space For Conversations to take Place.” You can learn more about Purple Frog here.
-
Darius Norell
Okay, welcome to this episode of What's Your Work, I am really happy and excited to be joined by Gamal Turawa today, otherwise known as G. And I was talking with G before and saying, Okay, how would you like me to introduce you? And he said, well introduce me as you experience me, which I thought was a lovely invitation. And so I remember back to the first time we met, which is when you were in the Metropolitan Police. And my experience was just this warmth and welcoming energy. That was my overwhelming sense of, WOW, this is this person who's bringing positivity wants good things that I immediately felt safe around, not sure that's quite the right word, but describe, oh, here's someone who's alive, awake, and bringing good things. So that was, that's my experience of you. And it's been borne out by obviously a kind of relationship that's grown over the years. So that's yeah, that's gonna be my way of introducing you. How was that?
Gamal 'G' Turawa
That was that was nice, actually, that was one of the best. You're my top one thousand.
Darius Norell
So we have to preface that G has become a kind of on his way onto the Celebrity list now. And for those of you that don't know, or haven't watched it yet, there's a very powerful film that's been created, starring G about your life - The Black Copy - and it's been BAFTA nominated, and we'll hear, I guess, soon, kind of whether it wins the BAFTA, but irrespective, it is just an incredibly, I know powerful is an overused word, but just kind of to be searing, maybe just just insight and look at your life, but just has so much resonance for the times and in so many ways. And we can talk about that some more. So what else would we get people to know about you?
Gamal “G” Turawa
Well, I mean, that my work is, I'm a facilitator. And one of the things I do is go into organisations and help them to have courageous conversations, especially in the equality, diversity and inclusion space, you know, getting them to speak about the things that they find uncomfortable to talk about, but give them a level of comfort and foundation to talk about it. I also do one to one coaching for leaders who are well basically that came about because there are leaders who don't know how to say “I don't know”. And it's about giving them the space to see “I don't know”, and explore why they don't know what they want to know. Without judgement. Without fear. And without you know a spotlight on them.
Darius Norell
And you're, the title of this podcast is What's Your York and you know, we'll dig into it, you've done a tonne of work right already on yourself as it were given everything that you faced, and also going to experience clarity around, hey, this is my work to do in the world. Right. So there may be some quite a reflective quality through this as well as some kind of you still see as your work or what still alive for you. You know, as it is, for me of kind of, for me, this is an edge at the moment or whatever it might be. So there's lots of ground for us to cover. And I'm, I'm, I'm curious to see where we go in our conversation because there's so many so many different directions. And so I guess one thing I'm going to say just as a also facilitator in doing coaching work is that you're well it's my experience of your presence. And because you've I'm going to say done the work , it doesn't mean it's finished, obviously, but but you've done, you've been in the work enough yourself that that's just such a powerful place to come into the room from of like, I I know what it's like to be X, Y, Z and in my own way, and wrestle with that and being competent with it and then find a way through. And I think there's just such a stunning place to do the work you do from so I just want to I want to acknowledge that.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah,
Darius Norell
and it's not easy. So what Yeah, where should we start? I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a little opening. Where's your energy?
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Why don't start with where we are now?. And then see where that takes us. I mean, I mean I'm in an amazing space. And even when I talk about it, even no matter how many times I talk about it it's still, it's still very emotional for me. Because what's happened in the last month, last four weeks, has just expanded my understanding of what can be possible. And it's just blown it out of the water. And it basically is just said to me that life will always continue to offer you surprises. And, you know, I'm just in that place of what the hell else can happen. Last year, if I take it back a little bit, I had a painting done by a local artist, who called me in and said, he wanted to paint me. And that was an experience that I thought was amazing, you know, watching this painting, which initially started off as me. And then as it grew, it started to take on a life of its own. And I started to realise that this painting is going to have conversations that I'm not going to be part of. This painting is going to meet people, I will never meet. This, this painting is going to have its whole journey by itself, which I will not be a part of, but have a connection with, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I think that that what that kind of did for me, unconsciously, I don't know if it is unconsciously or not. But it's kind of said to me, we need to let our stories go. Our stories, for me belong to the world. And we have to let them go and do the work they need to do. And that's what's happened with the documentary that's just been made. It's, it's, it's having conversations, it's starting conversations, it's creating ideas and thoughts. And it's gone off on its own journey. And, you know, occasionally I'm getting some of the feedback. But it's just an amazing feeling to say that we you know, that that validation of we need to let our stories out there, we need to let them go out into the world and, and do what they need to do.
Darius Norell
Even that you can do so much so much even in that just the movie or call it the wisdom to even understand that our stories are not ours. At some point, if we try and hold on to them or control like, oh, it's not that I wasn't. That is not your story. It's inherently your story. And it's not your story in the sense, as you say, and so how did you even get that learning or insight to be able to let it be free and and do its work without you?
Gamal 'G' Turawa
I think it's about that. It's about control. I remember, you know, and I think we spoke about this before, but I remember doing my initial training around facilitation. And one of the, one of the guides, or students or teachers on that path was a guy called Paul Barber, Professor Paul Barber. And he used to do, he did the module on Gestalt facilitation for us. And one of the things he used to say was, if you want control, you have to give up control. And I was like, that doesn't make sense. You know, I'm there in the classroom, I have to manage what's going on in this room, I have to be in control, otherwise, it's gonna chaos is gonna happen, you know, the world's gonna go crazy, you know, everything like that. And then one day, I was in a classroom delivering a workshop. And this conversation started in the room. And it was a really powerful conversation. And I just thought, I'm gonna step back and just watch and see where this goes. And this conversation was bouncing around or bouncing around for about 10-15 minutes. And then there was this really powerful, reflective silence that entered the room. And then after about a minute of that silence, it was like everybody in the room turned to me and said, right, so where are we going now? And it was like, Ooh, I get it. But then what what also happened to me Darius is that it made me realise that I've always been letting go, but I just didn't realise I was doing it. Mm hmm. And I think that it's the more I've allowed myself to be vulnerable. The more amazing things have happened if that makes sense?
Darius Norell
yeah, it totally does. I mean, I'm, I mean, I'm asking the question, that's, there's always a personal energy and edge for me of how do I do that more, because I can see that energy and myself to kind of resisting, letting go in different ways. And I kind of do it in certain ways, I think really well. And then there's a comes a point where I can just feel like, oh, no, no, I'm not, I'm not ready for that. And holding, trying to hold on or trying to control overtly rather than fully letting go, I'm in admiration and learning in terms of,
Gamal 'G' Turawa
what makes you want to hold what, what, what it feels
Darius Norell
like, it's going to be safer, right? It feels like oh, if I if I control this situation, I mean, it's not well, so definitely safety. But also, then I you know, like all I get to feel like I'm important somehow Right. So there's both energies, and then they're they they're not . I say they're not overt. I mean, they're there. And I think I designed things and shop in ways that that mean, that often they're not present. But even that is there's a lot of thought into, okay, how do I set this up? So I don't need to be in control. But even that's kind of a way to kind of be okay, well, you know, those are my bounds, you know, maybe that's appropriate. Like it, that's what I feel safe with, like, it just, I just can see in myself, there's conversations that I'd have to feel really in the right place and time to go, Okay, let's, let's go there. Or, or feeling attached to a story like and I'm amazed, because, you know, I've seen some of the interviews you've done. And obviously, people haven't lived your life, they have two minutes with you 10 minutes with you, whatever it is, in my view, they're asking some pretty clumsy questions. They're kind of making some assumptions, trying to put words in your mouth to literally tell you what your experience was, and and you're so graceful. This was what I've seen in terms of receiving that and working with it. And I can imagine I might I might be a little bit like, hey, that wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like that. Well, that's not you know, I could I could just imagine trying to control the narrative about hey, you know, this incredibly personal story and, and moving wrenching. And, yeah, just part of me, I think would be wanting to, I could see trying to go, No, it wasn't like that. And just letting go of like, I don't get, you know, I don't get to dictate how someone else interprets my story.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Exactly. Exactly. And that's what I like, is that great, you know, you see it the way you see it. Whatever works for you. But But you know, the part for me where I where I will draw the line is you can see it the way you see it, you can interpret it the way you interpret it. But don't tell me how I should feel about it. That's not That's not your remit. That's not in your power. Yeah, that's just me.
Darius Norell
So two things I want to ask about then. And then we move to a different topic, which is, how do you, I think it can be hard for people to imagine how you have done the work you've done to get to where you are right, because they're still caught in 'Oh, what if that had happened to me? That's awful. That shouldn't have happened'. And I think one of the things that makes the film so powerful is is you really, at least as I see it, owning the experience that you had and talking about, okay, well, this is, this was my part in all of this. Right and just as fully as you can, and it seems pretty full to me going like this is what I can see I was doing in here wasn't pretty some of it. Some of it was really, you know, difficult to listen to and hear and, and you faced into it. And you're on Yeah, no, this was my bit, while other people doing their bit not saying there are other people not doing their bits or whatever. But this was my bit. And I think it can be really hard for people to go, oh, no, you shouldn't be like that, or you don't know, whatever, blah, blah. So how do you and then it's all work right? At least, you know, I went through an experience that caused me to have to do work with people that were trying to be helpful, but it was like you haven't done your work. And now I'm having to do your work for you because you haven't done yours. So how do you how do you how do you hit that?
Gamal 'G' Turawa
I think it still goes back to that element of control. And also giving up the need to feel that I'll have to be perfect. Mm. I'm perfectly imperfect. Like nothing happens to us without our input, in whatever way, shape or form. And sometimes, you know, we may not like the person we were when we did that, and it may feel, but we have to learn, for me we have to lean into that stuff. That's where the learning is. And the learning is owning, you know, there's a particular scene that's in the film, which I, you know, if anybody, I don't want to spoil the film, you know being a BAFTA nominee.
Darius Norell
It only took us 15 minutes to get there.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
That's the first time ever No. But there's a particular scene, which is a quite the interesting thing about it when we were filming that scene. I lived the experience. So it was always in my head. Yeah. And I told people about it, but it was still in my head. When it was filmed and it was filmed with actors, it was taken out of my head, and I saw it. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that's what people see. But I also saw that and I also say, and I say, you know, I allowed that to happen to me. And the amount of people say, Yeah, but you were this and you were that I said, No, it's not about this and that it's about recognising my own part in that pain. And sometimes we cause ourselves pain. But we can't heal from that pain until we recognise that what we've done with it. If that makes sense?
Darius Norell
It does. It does I mean, that was, you know, that those words, you know talking about Okay, well, what's going on you say it loud that it was yeah, it was poignant. And it felt, I mean, as I noticed, some part of me saying I don't want that to be true and just recognising Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you did. Doesn't make it okay, in the sense of that people should have done it or shouldn't have done it or just but that was your bit. It seemed like as you told it, and as you say, ultimately, is what you your experience is the one that counts because it's your life. Right? So and I just noticed that Yeah, that's true.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
I think what that gives us as well when we start to look at let me own it, when I start to look at life like that it gives me and I know it's a big word, but it gives me compassion. It gives me that ability to look at other people and think well I don't expect you to be perfect either. If I understand that I've had pain, everybody's had pain in different way shapes or forms, right? But it gives me that compassion to recognise I don't know everything about you just as I don't know everything about myself.
Darius Norell
Can I can I share another thought that came up? And I don't know if it's helpful. I know we haven't sort of described the scene and maybe maybe we'll do it without describing the scene but if it feels helpful we can give some detail but when I was watching this that moment, another thought came up around or can't remember if it was a reflection afterwards, around what might have been going on for the for the other officers in that in that moment and thematically this was about I say you fitting in to the Force into a into this image of a white white dominated or that's what it means really to be in the Met Police you have to be white right and you are recognising a part of yourself that really wanted to fit in and and I wondered if that if something similar but kind of equivalent was like oh no, we want you to fit in or like this. Like this is what it means to fit like somethin, again not to excuse any of it because it's just it's just a such I don't know it awful is the right word, but just kind of in I'm not sure what the right word is. But I could just imagine you thought about the compassion just a space ago like okay, what was going on for them? Right? It was totally inappropriate thing to do. And was there a systemic thing of like, Oh, look at this, we're, they're a victim as much of kind of not to avoid their responsibility in it, but it's kind of like, we're at the effect of like, this is what it means to fit in. And so this is the best we know how to do to have it have it happen. Again, please don't hear that anyway as excusing what they were doing. But just to be open to that.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Yeah. What I'm and that's why if you see the photograph, you know, I've I've got rid of blanked out their heads. Yeah, because I recognised that we were all on our journey so to speak. Yeah, we all learnt something in that, you know, that part of us all of us felt that that was acceptable.
Darius Norell
Yeah, all needed to happen or was some somehow Oh, yeah,
Gamal 'G' Turawa
there was an I, when I say this, people sort of get frustrated or angry. But there was no maliciousness at the time. It wasn't done from a place of malice, it was done from a place of ignorance. It was done from a place of a lack of awareness. And what I would even go further and say that it wasn't the police that did it. We all came into the police with those feelings. All the police done was magnified them and created that catalytic moment. But we all came from our respective places with that mindset.
Darius Norell
And just as you're talking, to me, it's this incredible demonstration of by owning your story, right facing into what might be here for me to look at this mine, we can see a much bigger picture and open to will, oh, something's going on for them. And maybe it's not just this and maybe it's that right? It just that opportunity that allows and enables for everyone to do their own work, right? Because going back to the theme if they want to do that work, they now have space to do that. Right? They don't have to get into some fight with you about, oh, he's still holding all this resentment or upset or to say no, but there's a space here, if you want to recognise your part in what you were doing. You can if you don't, don't, I was like this. And that's a beautiful gift to give them and the world and yourself.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Yeah, I, part of me sits back and thinks, I hope it is giving them time to reflect. And to recognise, I mean, I recognise also that they'll there'll be some anger there. There'll be some defensive there, there'll be some pain there. And that may block them from hearing what I'm actually saying. But it won't stop them from feeling. And hopefully that feeling that they have will do something good for them. At some point. When they stop looking at me and start thinking, oh, actually hold on a minute. Yeah.
Darius Norell
Well, that's what I think was so stunning, but about the film and just that it it it was clean in the sense of hey, this is this is me, right? This is not trying to lay blame anywhere that you know, loved. You know, they do that you did reselect I'm not interested in blaming this person. That wasn't that I'm interested in solutions, right? It's kind of a very, like, okay, so given everything, and there's powerful forces at play here. We're all part of that and the stuff beyond us. What are we gonna do about it? Yeah. So you haven't home? Sorry, say that again?
Gamal 'G' Turawa
That's the conversation as a society. We haven't had we're still in that place of I need I need you to recognise that you hurt me. Yeah. And actually, you know, we need to recognise we're all hurting. Yeah.
Darius Norell
So a couple of other questions. you've talked about the emotion what's in that in? Yeah, what can you see is there for you in that just the I don't want to put words into your mouth but what's what's
Gamal 'G' Turawa
so what do you mean by
Darius Norell
the the BAFTA nomination? It's kind of elevating. Maybe I use that word kind of Hey, so what's what's what's causing the emotion now? Not saying just just does that I'm trying to be delivertately vague, so I'm kind of
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Let me answer it as I hear it. Yeah. Let's see if that works. One of the things I've always struggled with and people will laugh at this is that I've always struggled with my self worth. Which is crazy because I have done put myself in so many crazy places and done so many crazy things. You know that everyone looks at me as being supremely confident. But there's always been that impostor syndrome if people find out who I really am all this is going to disappear I think what's what's happening now I'm finally starting to actually say you are somebody. You're okay, you're good. I find I'm finding a there's a joy. There's a feeling of, there's a lot of feeling overwhelmed. But there's also this incredible piece that's coming up that's like wow. And I'm looking forward to getting into a group and doing some work. And just seeing how this manifests itself into into my work. It's funny, I was walking through town the other day. And I'm walking along, and there's a crowd of people. And just about 50-60 feet away, or yards away, sorry, there was a woman. And she just looked up, we our eyes connected, and she just gave me this great big smile. And I smiled back, and we got closer, and she comes up to me, and she goes, how are you? And I'm fine, I'm thinking Do I know you?. And she goes, Do you know, you look like a Buddha walking around just then. There is so much because you just had this. He said, You just looked so calm in all of this crowd that it just made me smile. And I was like, wow. And I've noticed that people are smiling at me more strangers on the train or walking around, or people are just smiling. It's like, it feels good. Feels good. It feels. But I said the biggest I think the biggest thing underneath is what else is possible. I never thought I would get to this. What else is possible the door, that that window of possibility that view has just wham. It's just exploded? And, and I suppose the other question I'm asking myself is, am I open enough to receive? And that's something I've been working on is just saying, okay, look, I need to get rid of some of this angst, some of these fears some of this, and just be open and let whatever's going on. Whatever is there for me, I've got to allow it to come through. Just I've just want to be free. I just want to be open and just say wherever it takes me. I'm open. I'm here. I'm ready. Let's go.
Darius Norell
Thank you. Beautiful. And it's exciting. And I so I guess there's a sense of I'm just gonna use the word validation. I don't know if that is the right word that comes up with the kind of the film of Hey, okay, this is, you know, you talk about self worth, is that is that, does that work resonate for you or not? Or is that is that off base?
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Not validation. I think validation is in there, but it's not. It's not at the top. Okay. I think there's a sense of, actually, you know, now when I think of it, I suppose it depends on the context. It's almost like, I've used my. I'm aware of the power of my story. Because I've used my story as a basis for a lot of my work. And it opens up other people. And it's created amazing conversations. It's touched people in fantastic ways, but it's also allowed people to connect with their own story. And I've seen that I've witnessed that. And, and I think like I said, again, now it's recognising that it's the story that does the work. Mmmh. And given that story out and watching it work, it's like, okay, now I get it. It's the story. And that's validating. It's almost like saying, Yeah, I saw it as me and the story. Yeah. Now, it's like, it's the story. Okay. Yes.
Darius Norell
So what is a different word that comes up for me know is relief, almost like, oh, this this. All this work I've done that I thought was me as well as kind of like it can live by itself and do its own thing. Yeah.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Yeah. There's that erm I don't know if you've ever seen that Steve Jobs, he did I think it was a graduation speech at school. Or called joining the dots. Yes. And I think that's where I'm in that space now of looking back and think Oh, right. Okay. This is where all this has come from. This is what this has given me. This is what it's given me. And the other feeling I've got as well is gratitude. I'm grateful I went through every one of those experiences because without them I wouldn't be here today having this conversation and be a BAFTA nominee two!
Darius Norell
I think it's important to say because at least I'm going to I'm going to lay something out then because I think this is accurate. But please correct me, which is you weren't doing all of the work that you did on yourself to get like, oh, because I want to be a BAFTA nominee, right. Like, just like, This is my work, like I've got, what do I do? Like, okay, maybe this is the only way through, it's certainly one way through, it's a healthy way through this is gonna enable me to be at peace in myself anyway. Right. And as you said, he'd been doing this work. And so it wasn't like you were trying to at least as I understand it achieve some huge goal. It was just like, This is my life. And I've got to work with what's in front of me. Coming back to where we started with Okay, well, what's here right now? And I've tried avoiding it. I've tried denying it. I've tried. I've tried lots of different other strategies, they haven't worked so well. All right, at some point, I've got to go into this and do that competently and incompetently and I'm gonna recognise that for my own level I have sometimes Yeah, whatever. And then, one of the amazing byproducts is, wow, this creates ability to have my head up and see and connect and have wonderful things happen. And now something amazing is happening.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's, it's, it's the gift. Not the intention. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's something I've started to look at is that gift is a word that comes up a lot comes up a lot in my head. What gift is this situation given me?
Darius Norell
Whether you thought you wanted it or needed it, right, sometimes we get gifts that are a little bit smelly. Right? Yeah. What's this for, and we can still relate to it as okay, if this was a gift, what's it got for me that that could be of use of value? And, and? Yeah,
Gamal 'G' Turawa
I guess the thing is that recognising that, you know, even pain is a gift. And you may not, you may not understand it at the time.
Darius Norell
So let me ask a question from a different place. So I think as you know, I've been doing a lot of work with, with young people coming into work. And I guess, firstly, to acknowledge, like this, the difficult conditions that the pandemic of isolation of, you know, this kind of lack of jobs during furlough, and so there's kind of just been, you know, people have had a year two years unemployed, out of work, loss of confidence. And, and, and I'm just not used to speaking to people and lots of lots of mental health challenges. What? Because I can imagine people hearing like, What do you mean pains a gift? Like, I'm just can't take anymore? I'm done. I can't, you know, what, I'm saying is because I know you've faced and been in lots of pain in different ways. And what what would you be saying to them? For someone who's feeling like I just, it's okay, for you. You're BAFTA nominated? It's easy for you to say. And of course, he went through your pain. That wasn't the case. But what's
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Yeah, it's, you know, there's a phrase I like, and I think it's becoming more and more resonant for me. And is, this too shall pass. Nothing lasts forever. And I think, you know, if I was young, and I was in that place, I wouldn't have heard me as well. Yeah, because people don't, but people don't see the journey. Yeah, they see results, but they don't see the work that brought you there. And it's, I think part of it is saying, don't trust people around you learn to trust yourself. Learn to trust yourself, learn to be with yourself. And that can be a hard thing to understand. But one day, this will be useful to you. Not now, but it will ultimately one day be useful. I remember being a kid and I came from a very abusive childhood. Part of my childhood was with white foster parents. My first eight years and the next eight years was with my natural parents and my father was physically abusive. And I can remember being beaten by my dad by rubber hoses, bits of wood, leather shoes. He tied me up, and I remember screaming, screaming, hoping that somebody would call the police or that the neighbours would break down the door or something like that, and no one ever came. You know , sitting there as a kid, 13-14 years old thinking, this will never end, you know, this will never this will this is this is why Why am I in this place, you know, this is this, the hole of those that from from eight to 16, those eight years were filled with fear, filled with fear. And one of the things he says to me now, when when I see parents who are in that space, I'd say don't think you forget that your kids are gonna grow up. They're going to be adults. And that stuff is going to come out somehow. And they're gonna have to face it at some point. And but , the long term effects of what you're doing, you can't see it. And it's about if we could see it, if we could understand it, we would take more care of ourselves. But sometimes I think we have to go through that pain, we have to go through those experiences. And it's a challenge. It is a challenge, I'm not going to sit here and say isn't, it is a challenge. I can sit here and say, you will get through it. You will get through it. It's it's hard at the time, but you will get through this too shall pass. You will have good times you will have bad times you will laugh, you will cry, you will grow your stance, you know, it's all part of the rich tapestry of life.
Darius Norell
And what what to me, you are an embodiment of an example of is the possibility of turning that difficult situation, which seemed like a massive understatement from what you've just described. But those incredibly painful, prolonged experiences, to be able to turn that into something, right. That's the possibility, right, it's not an inevitability. But it's a possibility if we're able to have perspective and work do the work.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
But there's also another side to that Darius as well is that we don't do it on our own. There are teachers that come along the way and we, we don't always recognise them or see them for who they are. But there are teachers that come along and or angels or whatever you want to call them that come along, and just maybe just nudge us every now and again. And it's whether or not we're open to that experience, one of one of the ones for me. And I think he's a very, very powerful driver for a lot of what I do is part of I said eight to 16, I was with my father from 16, at 16, my dad sent me to Nigeria, told me I was going on a two week holiday. And I ended up living out there for eight years, out of which one of those years I was homeless on the street of Lagos streets of Lagos, living under a bridge. But then, long story short, I ended up working in a steel plant. And there was an engineer that worked there, white engineer from England, and somebody came to me one day and said, we've got this lump of gold. If you can sell it to the white people, you can keep half the money and buy yourself a ticket back to London. And I thought ooh, that sounds like a good idea. So I took this lump of gold and I went to see this guy, Richard. And he asked me to bring it round to his house and I took it to his house and he took it out of the box it was in and he scraped it. And it turned out to be a lump of lead, sprayed gold. And then he just looks up and he looks at my face. And he just said you've been used haven't you. And I was like Yeah. But it was the beginning of a friendship. And, you know, I used to hang out at his house a lot. And we used to talk and everything like that. And for me, it was like a little touch of England again. And then his wife came over and holiday. And she stayed and at the end of the holiday they had a little barbecue. And we had this barbecue and and everybody had gone and there's about four of us left sort of drinking the last drinks and having that last late night conversation and the conversation turns to me and he says, Why don't you go back to England. You say you clearly don't fit in here. You don't belong here. You're not surviving. Where am I gonna get the money from? I was earning less than 25 pounds a month. The fare was 600 pounds. Well, where was I going to get the money from? and he said okay, he said Where's your passport? And I said, I don't know. You know, I've been in Nigeria about seven and a half years by this time. And so I'll tell you what, when my wife, Annette, gets back to the UK, we get a copy of your birth certificate, and we'll get your passport. So, few weeks later, the passport arrives, Richard says, I'm gonna hold on to this because I don't want you to lose it. I said, Okay, so I took this passport. He took it a couple of weeks later, I'm around his house, and we're talking. And he throws this envelope across the table at me and says, Oh, by the way, I forgot that yours. And I open up this envelope inside this envelope is my passport, and a first class ticket back to London. And I'm in a place of, I never dreamed that this would happen. It was another for want of a phrase another BAFTA moment, is one reason why I never ever thought I was ever going to come back to the UK, I thought I was gonna die in Nigeria. That was it. What gives that story a bit of an added context was at the beginning of that year, I had decided in my head that if I didn't leave Nigeria that year, I was going to kill myself. I came back to England in July of that year 1987. That moment changed my life. And I think a lot of what I do now is I want to give that feeling to other people. I want to be Richard for other people. But rather than give them a lump of gold, or give them a list, I want to give them the greatest gift it's themselves. Give them something and and I think a lot of my work now, in fact, I know it's about giving that back giving that feeling that that that goal that gift, I want to give it to as many people as possible.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
And you know, we have so many people like that come into our lives and just give us incredible gifts. And we have to pass them on.
Darius Norell
Wow, thank you.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
You're welcome. You're easy to talk to. You're dangerous
Darius Norell
I almost just don't want to say anything else. I feel like that was such a beautiful feeling that at least I'm experiencing hearing you say that it was just the the but it was almost the impossibility. Like, how is that even possible that this person that you came actually to con without realising it? It turned into an actually I'm going to without even asking, right just seeing like, Hey, this is this is something that's what about his life was like, this is something for me to do that I want to do, that I can see and believe is powerful. And just Yeah, I just think it's such a beautiful, a beautiful moment. And then and then just the the how transformative that was for you that all you want to do really in your life is recreate that for other people. And the most powerful way you know how which is giving people the gift of themselves. That's a lovely phrase.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
On the other side is I don't y'know, I've met with him a couple of times since I've come back. But the thing I've always struggled with is how do you say thank you for that? It's the words are just not there, you know, to say, Do you have any idea what you've given me? And and how do I you know, it's not about repaying, because I don't think he did it from that place of being repaid. Sure. But how do I how do I acknowledge, let him know that I really, really value what he's given me. And how much is it has, it changed my life?
Darius Norell
Well, I'd love to offer some perspective on that. Yeah, okay. So imagine that you already are. Right, you already have like you being new is the greatest thank you that he could ever have.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Mh. Gonna sit with that for a while. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's got some work to do.
Darius Norell
Yeah, I mean, I could imagine just you being out of that difficult situation was like, yeah, great if that happened. And because I mean, just to play out different scenarios, right, you could have come back to UK and say, wasted, your life ruined your life, ended up in any or hundreds of directions, right. So if his deepest wish was like, I want you to be free from this difficult, awful situation that you're in. Just being out of that, and having quote say a ' normal life', whatever we want to use that just like, that would, could have been another great, you've made the most of this. And you've gone so far beyond that, where your life's purpose is like, all I want to do is recreate that moment you gave me like that's multiplying that gift he gave you so many times over.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
But it's also an indication of this is getting deep now , as if it wasn't deep before. But it's also an indication, one of the things, I think one of the important things is that I didn't recognise the gift at the time. And it's an indication of how much my conditioning had blinded me to so much. But it's only probably in the last 10 to 15 years that I recognise the power of that gift. I had to get rid of or recognise or value or work with a lot of my social conditioning that blinded me to seeing these things. And, you know, the scenario that happened that in the Police College in the film
Gamal 'G' Turawa
was, that was the point where I was still blind. That's what I said, it's almost like joining the dots.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
So sometimes we can be given the most powerful gift in the world, but we don't recognise it at the time. We don't see it for what it is we say, Oh, wow. Yeah, thanks. But actually, it's not until
Gamal 'G' Turawa
you do the work. And many people don't know that they can do the work.
Darius Norell
Yeah, so there is a work to be done with you how to do the work. And I'm going to say and I'd love to get your comment on. It doesn't even matter how you start, right? Just like to start doing some work. And then you'll figure out okay, is this is this work working? No. Okay, well, let me try something else. It doesn't, you know, even if you're off base, like, just start working with what it is that you you've got a lot.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Or recognising? Y'know, there's, I think there's moments that come along, that give you that nudge that give you that nudge in a different direction, or in it or say to you, hello, you need to wake up. And the question I will always ask you is, how powerful does that have to be?
Darius Norell
I'm smiling, because some of mine have needed to be pretty powerful to go Oh. That's really, and that's, you know, to me, ultimately, that's exciting. Because it's like, well, I've done a lot of work to resist doing this work, there's going to be something really great on the other side of this right to something really worth it. Because I've done a lot to avoid facing into whatever it was. Which sometimes we need to do, though, don't we? Yeah, because it's not, not, don't try and take everything on at once. Right? At least that's there for you. But it's kind of work with what's
Gamal 'G' Turawa
I think the other thing is to recognise that whatever you're doing at the, at that moment in time, you're doing it for your own best interest. It may not be the thing that you need to do so. And I think that that's that part about being compassionate with yourself. Whatever you do, you're doing based on the knowledge and awareness you have in that moment.
Darius Norell
To the best of your ability. Yeah, I think that being kind to ourselves, most of us are so harsh on ourselves, you know, I can be like you said you can be just certainly working with with the people I have over this last year people, you know, a lot of people not everyone, but a lot of people are very conscientious. They want to do good work. They want to be helped in and there's so much angst I'm not good enough. I'm going to make a mistake. I'm going to mess up I'm going to you know just just it's all just gets in the way. Yeah. Be a little bit kind and, or being a lot kind actually, to suffer a little bit, bathe yourself in kindness, right and say that again,
Gamal 'G' Turawa
let go to grow.
Darius Norell
Let go to grow. And you touched on impostor syndrome earlier and maybe just in the last couple minutes just to touch on that, because I'm really curious about so many people talk about it. And whether they kind of other people who coming in like, Oh, I've got impostor syndrome, how can you have impostor syndrome? No one was expecting or thinking you can do anything anyway. But they're still like, it got impostor syndrome, and then people at a more senior level, or everyone's looking up to like, oh, yeah, I'm curious about it. I'm curious about it for myself, like, well, what is what is, I actually don't think it's a very helpful term, I have to say, but that's, that just might be me. But I've looked at I looked at it for myself, I'm going well, what? my own journey with it is I don't want to feel tense in differences in a certain certain situations, like if I'm doing some work with someone, I don't want to feel tense about it. Like, I don't like that feeling of am I good enough? Or am I I just don't want to I just don't want to experience that. And so trying to let go of that as words, just say, Okay, well, what's really there people doubting themselves? And the way I've worked with, Okay, well, I don't want I'm in a situation where I'm doubting myself, I don't do my best work, it doesn't feel nice. And so what would I need to do to solve that? It's checking in as best I can really ahead of time. Okay, what is it that you really need? And what is an outcome? Why are you thinking I'm a good fit for that? Why am I thinking I'm a good fit for that? Am I really just being genuinely you know, what this? I'd love to, but I don't think that's accurate. I'm not even just going to run away, I just want to check like, I'm not sure, you know, like, someone asked me to do a piece of work yesterday. It looks like an amazing piece of work. I'm like, Well, this is really great. Is it all of this looks fantastic. Love to do it. And this is one bit that you've asked for that that doesn't, you know, that's not an area of skill set that acknowledge that I'm really feel, you know, as competent in as I do all the other bits, happy, you know, I can work with others to bring that piece in. Just want to lay that on the table, right? Because like, if that's doesn't seem like it's central, but if it is central, maybe I'm not the right person. Now, this piece of work that looks like a great fit to me. But it's a way of heading off. Doubts I would have later if I didn't say that now of all do, I think, because I didn't just like no, this is me. Like, I think I've got stunning things to bring to this. And also know this, like, if that's a deal breaker then don't have me and then we find someone else for you or whatever it might be. And then so then the counterpart of that is when we're doing a work being very free. And like, is this what you were hoping for when you hired me? Because this was looking like good work? Or maybe sometimes it's not looking like good work? Can I just check? Is this what you were wanting? And I've had to learn both ways round. Sometimes when I think things are amazing. Actually, the clients going Hmm, this isn't meeting my expectations. And it's very, you know, okay, great. Well, let's adjust them to figure that out. And also interestingly, sometimes when I'm thinking this is this doesn't look like it's doing what I'm thinking it needs to be doing. The analysis. It's this is perfect. And it helps me relax into Okay, great. That's wonderful. If at any time, anything changes, just let me know. I'm happy to step out or change or adjust or review. And that keeps me relaxed and then not doubtful. So anyway, just wanted to lay that on as a kind of, yeah. Any any reactions to that or kind of what do you do or what's it?
Gamal 'G' Turawa
For me? My definition of impostor syndrome is the unhealed inner child. Who am I impostor syndrome? Oh, my child manager is still sitting in a corner scared. And it's, uh, now I'm in a place of having a conversation with him to say it's okay. It's alright, you come out. I'm here now for you. We're all those times when nobody was here. I'm here. And having that conversation and allowing that to happen, but to me, it's the voice of the inner child. The imposter syndrome is a way of asking myself what do I need to work on? It's an indicator. I remember you towards the end that you were talking about situation but I had a scenario there was a guy who I've been working with for almost 10 years and we first met almost 10 years ago, I was delivering a course in Hampshire. And he was a police officer from Austria, a colonel in the Austrian police. And he, at the end of the workshop, he comes up to me, he says, Would you like to come and work with me in Vienna, and deliver a workshop in Vienna? And it's like ooh, yes. And he invited me over for the planning and prep. And I got there. And he had the whole week's workshop mapped out literally to the minute. I think I've told you this story before. So yeah. And I looked at it. And he's going through and I said, Sorry, can I just stop you? And he goes, What? What is it you want from me? To deliver this workshop and all that? Yeah. But there's, I'm not there. But I said, what you're asking me to do, you could have got a monkey in to do it. You didn't need a human being. And he was like, oh, anyway, so we had that conversation. And there was some angst. We started the workshop. And increasingly, as the week went on, the tension between us was getting more and more intense. I'll be delivering a session, and suddenly this conversation would start. And you're like, yes, yes, we're now getting, and it's right it's now 10:15. we stop here, we go to the next session. And I'm like, what? Whoa, can you not see. And I remember, it got to the Wednesday, and everybody had gone to lunch. And you're when you're sort of in the classroom, and the two of us were sat in the classroom, we didn't even look at each other. We didn't even look at each other. We got to the end of the week. And it was like, Thank God that's over. Like Bye and I came back. And I thought that was probably one of the most challenging weeks I ever had. The next year, he rang me up and said, Oh, I'm doing the same course again. Would you like to work with me? And I thought, okay, I know what he's like now. So maybe I can adjust to work because I know what he's like. And I got there and it was no, no, it was exactly the same. And even though I know it just still was, but then we got to the last day. And something happened. And we were talking about we're asking the group for feedback about how the week has gone. And the feedback was phenomenal. Like the feedback was incredible. Some of the best feedback both of us have ever received. I was sort of like, Okay, I don't know what it is. But there's something about this dynamic that actually works. And we've been working together ever since for the past, like, say 10 years. And it's funny because his PA always comes down. As you know, her opening line when she comes in she goes, right? Could you tell me when you're going to have the argument this week, so I can just let everybody know. Because, you know, now we argue, but we argue with love. We still have tension, but its a tension on a foundation of love and respect. And this has been a great partnership. And I've learned so much from that.
Darius Norell
And it really just speaks to this, whatever we think we're in and sometimes we may be in something just to be able to be open and check in with how is it for the people that are we're in service of and if genuinely what they're saying seems like this is beneficial accurately just to be okay. Because you say, Alright, there's enough here, maybe a lot here that's really working and enables us to do our own work. So wonderful. So we are we are at time. I want to do like I say one thing, which is it sounds like that could be a feature film, right? I mean, they've just had a documentary. I mean, there's your that your life is just one of those stories. If it was a film people wouldn't believe it was like, Oh, that's a bit. I'll come on that. Why did they have to put that? You know, it's almost toned down like that. Well, they're just never going to believe that bit. Whatever. So here's to a feature film. And a shout out to the director, to Cherish. Yeah, just The Black Cop. Amazing work. Good luck with the nomination. Whatever happens. And thank you for taking the time this morning to be together and go deep.
Gamal 'G' Turawa
Yeah, I've enjoyed it. Darius. I've enjoyed it, but I knew I would. We have such good conversations and it's nice to do it in a different format.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Okay, until the next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Listen on Other Platforms:
Spotify - Apple Podcasts - Google Podcasts
Amazon Music - YouTube
