#24. Finding a Great Fit - Rich Watkins
“We're people in a messy, complicated world, and most of us want to get some things done - how do we do that?”
What’s it like to find the perfect place for you? Rich Watkins joins the podcast to talk about his unconventional route into some amazing work, as well as learning where and how he fitted in and the extraordinary contribution he was able to make. There’s also some discussion of his groundbreaking work with groups, what it means to function well as a group and how he supports teams working together. A must listen for anyone leaving school or university, or taking the next step in their career.
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Rich Watkins is the leader of Let's Go, a global network helping leaders and organisations make collaboration work - building skills in individuals, unlocking team potential and shaping the system so it supports collaboration. You can connect with him on LinkedIn @RichardDavidWatkins and with Let’s Go @LetsGoHQ.
Further links for Rich include his website, the Let’s Go collaboration cards and Rich’s TEDx talk.
Interested in the topic of integrity? Listen to our discussion with TikTok star Liv Pearsall.
Want to find your fit? Try the FindMyWhy tool.
Audio mix by Hula & Co. Music.
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Intro
Darius Norell
In this episode, fascinating conversation about careers and career paths, how they unfold, let us move even realizing it. The importance of learning, getting feedback of how we can connect our body and embodiment work, what that can tell us about ourselves that maybe we haven't seen. Full of, to me, fascinating topics, and finishing with a look at how to work in groups well, which I think for all of us is such a vital skill. I hope you enjoy the episode
Conversation
Darius Norell
Okay, so welcome, Rich Watkins, great to be with you today. Thanks for making the time.
Rich Watkins
No, it's great to be here. Thanks for the invite.
Darius Norell
And lots of things I'm excited to cover because your area of interest which we'll come on to in a moment is definitely one of mine. And lots that you're doing that I'm in admiration of. And although we haven't, you know, we don't have any sort of history together in terms of working together or having had much contact. I'm going to start with my sort of how I like to start on these podcasts, like giving an impression or my experience of you so far, which is tiny, right? So this could be way off. But this is what I'm picking up. And then we can go in, which is sort of someone who's a level of care, dedication, somebody who wants to be of service in the world. With something that's as a solid, I don't know if that's the right word or sort of, but there's also a sort of technical piece of like, yeah, there is some expertise here, which I'm looking to bring a craft that I'm looking to bring and identify with. So I'm going to throw that out. How does that fit as a start off?
Rich Watkins
Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's probably some shadow sides to that which we can dig into. But that's about right. Yeah, that's about right. I've sort of found myself, you know, through my career in a place that feels like the right place. And that involves Yeah, kind of almost obsessive attention on how to make sense of how we can get things done in the world. And I think it's kind of in a way, that's the orientation. Like, I think there's some people who are really good at, you know, understanding the real depths of human experience. And I feel like, where I sit is more like, okay, we're people in a messy, complicated world. And, most of us want to get some things done. And that, and how do we do that? Well, we rely on our instincts, our experiences teach us a lot of things. And I guess I've become really interested in shaping or making clear some of that in a way that I can, you can explain and use. So I guess the hope is to support people to see, to see things that they already know more clearly about how we work together, because everyone knows how everyone, we get things done all the time, we work with people all the time, we collaborate all the time, but, but maybe two, I almost see my work as a kind of reminder of what people already know and see. But in a language that they can grasp. Like they can get a hold of, so it feels a little less mysterious.
Darius Norell
I think that's really powerful. One of the other things which I didn't say in my little sort of capture, which I think you've just demonstrated and reminds us I'm reminded of is the power of being simple and as really hard to be simple in our language like not not simplistic, just like Oh, I'm talking using everyday words not ridiculous, ridiculous but but concepts that were kind of like what does that actually you just use very natural language to describe I think so really pay powerful and profound ideas, which is hard to do, right and rare in my experience where it's very easy to get caught up in complexity.
Rich Watkins
Yeah, I mean, I think in a way, I'm lucky, I'm a comprehensive school kid who left, who left full time education at 16. For a job, like, I just got a job with a big oil company, but I just got a job. And, and I think, in a way, I, at different times, tried to prove how clever I was or how smart I was. And it never really worked out well. And so in the end, I've kind of come to a sort of peace with that, that, actually speaking simply is something that's yeah, that I think is, is mine to do. I think it's, you know, there's, I don't have any problem with people using more technical language to understand ideas, I think it can be useful. New language is useful to unlock new thinking. But I guess again, what I'm trying to do is maybe reconnect with older, more simple thinking, that I think might be more helpful. So, for me, simple language is really important. And maybe, you know, also maybe I'm just a bit sensitive to accusations of bullshit. Like, I think there's a lot of bullshit in the world. And, and it's, and sometimes maybe I find myself tempted towards it. So I've, in a way, I'm quite careful to try and strip it out. Yeah. And also, the way I work is iterative. So when I share some ideas or something, and someone says to me, I literally am looking for someone to say, that doesn't really make sense. Or that feels very technical, or that feels mysterious, and I try and then find a simpler way to say it. But yeah, that's, that's
Darius Norell
All credit to you. I think I think, again, so much in the first few minutes that you've opened up as we could spend an hour on, to me any one of the things we've already touched on, but that that, that simplicity, I think makes it very accessible. And repeating a little bit what you said back, but I think it's worth it is the ease with which we can get carried away by our models or concepts, right? They lose touch with reality, and they sound good. And like, Oh, I feel good. Like, I feel clever sharing it with you, but like, does it actually work? And then came across strongly in your description of the beginning of we're trying to get stuff done? And that tells us, you know, are we finding it easier to get the things done that we want to do or harder as a result of using XYZ? That's why I love the world of business, because it provides a very grounding element to what otherwise could be almost a spiritual inquiry. Yeah, that then loses touch with reality. And we're not potential.
Rich Watkins
And of course, like, if you look at the most profound spiritual teachers, they're often the simplest. They're using the simple language, like, if you read you know, a note, if you listen to Desmond Tutu talk, or if you listen to, like, the Dalai Lama talk or if you listened to any of these figures, they there's there's a like a, there seems to be some kind of arc where, you know, the complexity comes, but then at the end of it, well, you know, what I the distinction I like to draw is between, I think the complex can be quite simple. But also things can be complicated. And complicated is like where they feel like they're a naughty engineering problem or mathematical problem, like, where it becomes very technical. But if you can handle complexity, which is basically things changing a lot. Things being interrelated to other things in a way that's so intricate that you can't really fathom it. Right? That's what complexity is. And actually, simplicity is the best way there. Well, actually, I don't even know if that's always true. It's a way and it's the way that I like, which again, I think is also with my work. It's like I like to kind of and maybe it comes from you know, I like to try and get a grip on the world. And what if you're obsessed with getting a grip on the world? Maybe it's because you found that hard when other people found it more natural, right? So I'm sort of very aware that that's alive in my work, like actually working well with people. I've always liked being around people. I've always been in groups from a kid. I was very involved in the community when I was growing up. And I've always liked it, but I don't know if I've always felt the most naturally at home. And so I think that gave me a drive to you know, want to it was just something that I had a real you know, I like I want communities to work well and I want to be in Working on functional communities. And that includes communities that are at work where we're trying to do things together. And I've always valued, you know, cultures and projects where it feels like, together, we're making more than we could on our own. And, and you know, how do they work? How do you get that to happen more often that becomes, and the word I use is collaboration, right? I talk about collaboration a lot. But it is a funny word to use, because it is just one of those fake things. It just feels very vague. But I guess I mean, something I don't mean, something just like working with people to do things.
Darius Norell
Yeah. And so when one one thing that's going on in my head, I want to say more, maybe to get out more for me than you. But I wanted to play back a little bit what you had, how you had described what you're doing, and up to? Yeah, because it felt really powerful. And at the same time, I felt maybe a little bit humble. I don't know, I don't know if that's quite the right word. But I want to play it back to you in a way that and see what you think it was? Oh, yeah, that is what I was saying, or no, that doesn't, you know, just to kind of, because you talked about sort of reminding almost like, it's reminding people of what they already know, or being touched on by getting a grasp on it. And that, there's more to me, there's more to that than it might sound like in this and he used the word distinction, like, you lot of things which people are doing or kind of have some knowledge of might be very implicit. And they may not have very clear distinction around, right. And it sounds like my sense is that you're giving them ways to distinguish things that they were doing that they didn't have the distinction before. Right. And, and credit, common language or shared language for then being able to work with that, which is incredibly powerful when you're talking about working with other people having that. Yeah, that language
Rich Watkins
100%. I'm 100%. My work is to help people distinguish between and once you have a distinction, then it's not difficult to see it. That's 100% my work.
Darius Norell
Great. So I'd love to go to the sort of beginning of your career. And you mentioned this, oh, I started out. I couldn't exact language, what you're trying to prove myself and show how clever I was
Rich Watkins
when I actually started off as I was 16. And I was trying to not look like the Work Experience kid. And probably someone should have told me that, that I shouldn't have worn cartoon ties. That's probably a bit of advice that someone should have given me if I wanted to. I basically was like a very, very fresh faced 16 year old moved away from home in Essex, where I grew up and to BP Oil Company, where I worked in laboratories as a scientist or as a trainee apprentice scientist. And then I studied part time, so in the end, I got my chemistry degree. But that took seven years from 16. Yeah, and that's, that was my, you know, that was my life.
Darius Norell
Yeah. So when you say it took seven years from 16? I mean, that's not that. No, well, I guess it's like a school and university and doing studying,
Rich Watkins
right? It's like a five. Basically my degree took five years instead of three years. My bachelor's degree. Well, whilst you were working, yeah, while I was working, yeah. So it was hard. It was pretty full on that the days were like, one day a week, but it was like a 12 hour day. By the time I, you know, had to travel there. Because not every university does these kinds of day release programs. And yeah, so it's, it was pretty intense. Yeah, I was happy when it was finished.
Darius Norell
So let's, let's because there's a lot of people, we're doing this interview at exam results time in the UK, so people getting a level results or just got high level results, GCSE results. Yeah. There is a kind of pressure, if that's the right word, but I sort of the default seems like oh, you should know, you should study. Maybe go to university. Yeah, I think that's becoming less and less. Sort of the default maybe, yeah, it's still it kind of like that's, you know, if you if you can, that's what you would do. And if you can't then maybe even though there's brilliant other routes, and so can you talk a little bit about what was your what was going on your mind. Leaving school at 16 was the kind of
Rich Watkins
I think it's hard to say. I basically had an opportunity and it looked exciting, and I wanted to do it. It felt different and original, it felt a bit dangerous. And, I felt reassured enough that it wouldn't be thrown away. My, you know, my development, I felt like it was a big company who could support me. I had the confidence. Yeah, I could continue my studies like I definitely wanted to get, I wanted to get a degree. Or again, like, I didn't know I was 16. Or did I know what I wanted, but I knew that it felt wise or that the advice was to get a degree still for me. But you know, I did what I did. I didn't do A Levels, I did a BTech certificate, sort of which is a kind of equivalent at a different college. And it was kind of strange, because I definitely could have gone another road like, I could have gone a much more academic road like I was, I was quite academically, like, good. Like, as in I got good results. I didn't go because I couldn't go anywhere else. But then it just felt right. I think there's, you know, I guess what, I don't even know if I have learned this yet. But one thing that's true, is that every time I have that deep sense of knowing that something feels good, it feels right. And I don't feel complicated about it. And I'm not endlessly comparing it to other options. I just think that's the one I want to do. That's always been like, I am a bit of a worrier. Like I worry a lot about choices that I make and commitments that I make. And like that's something that I've always worried about. And then every so often, I'm not at all worried about anything. And I just go, Yeah, let's do this. And sometimes those are the things that feel like from the outside that are very brave, but actually they don't feel brave. They just feel like the thing to do like leaving home at 16 for a job setting up my own business. They didn't actually didn't feel brave at all. They just felt like I'm ready to do this now. Yeah, so I think yeah, and I'm a big advocate of apprenticeships. You know, you just see different things. I think the Yeah, it, it worked well, for me. I mean, there were times through the process of it, where I had questions like, Have I gone the right path or the wrong path, or blah, blah, blah, like, I think that's normal. But I think that's probably true on any path you're on. And so, but actually, if I look back, it did me really well. And he ended up basically at 23, giving me seven and a half years of work experience, which meant that the job that I was able to apply for next was sort of more like a job that other people were getting at 2627. And that, you know, I wouldn't have been able to do that if I hadn't. I basically was able to spin a story that I had been working for seven years in a high profile company. What I don't think they knew is how many years I spent, like washing up test tubes. So I think it's kind of again, that's the funny thing about experience. Sometimes it's the story you're able to tell as much as actually what you did. But again, it's probably also true of university, right? Like so yeah, that was my,
Darius Norell
my start. And in that, that piece has to reconnect that moment. So you're wearing cartoon ties, you're not wanting to be the Work Experience kid wearing ties that
Rich Watkins
Not always but sometimes I had some really classy ones. Yeah.
Darius Norell
What else did you notice that you did to try and be impressive or kind of good.
Rich Watkins
I'm from Essex. And my accent now does not sound like I'm from Essex. And I, at that time, I think I don't know if it was ever a full conscious effort. But I knew that every time I slipped into a heavy Essex accent, people listened to me less. And so. So I have that. When I've had a few drinks or I'm really excited about something, it comes back a little but it's now this is how I speak. And that's, you know, I don't think it's not I don't, yeah, it's more of a Wallah ironed out. Generic southern accent. Yeah. So that was a you know, that was something that felt like it was needed. And that, you know, I'm gonna probably say it probably was for what I was trying to do. And then I think that's probably about it. I think. I mean, you know, I just, I was just like, you're 1617 I think you, you're so there's so much like I'm 40 and I feel Like, I'm still developing, and I'm still growing, and I'm learning and all of that. And I think when you're 16, or 17, you have this idea that you're only one year off being an adult, and then you're done. You're like, fully baked. And, I think one of the things that's difficult is when it maybe feels too hard to hold that you're gonna keep growing and learning probably pretty much the same rate forever, like we have feels too much you feel like I want to be done. I want to be baked, I want to be an adult now. So but I think that, you know, I would have, I would, I think I would have been, if I was talking to myself. Now, I might just reassure myself like the young me, I might reassure myself, like, there's a long way to go, and you've got a lot of time to learn it. And you don't have to get everything right. And it doesn't really matter. A lot of things that feel really big don't matter so much. And that there's room and possibilities will keep opening up in different ways. Yeah, so
Darius Norell
Yeah, the way the way I think of it is, if there's one time to be the work experience kid is when you’re the work experience kid. What else can you be that like, you don't need a bit less what level
Rich Watkins
I was an apprentice as a full time employee in our work. Talking as a 17 year old, like, you know, that felt like a big important distinction for me. I've got it. I've got a full time job. I'm, uh, you know, I'm getting paid 11,000 pounds a year, and I'm getting, you know, like that, Phil. I mean, anyway, that was probably one of the reasons I wanted the job. He said, Why did I want to do it, I was like, I want to get paid 11,000 pounds a year, that feels like an insane amount of money. Now, when you take out rent, and you, you know, you have to buy food, and you know, you have to persuade someone to buy you some beer. And you know, like these kinds of things, you know, it's not so much money, but you get addicted to you get addicted to entry level hifi equipment, like all these things mean that you don't have much money at the end of the month, but but there's a pride to
Darius Norell
come back. Yeah, coming back to your decision making. Again, this would be my language and call me on it or call me I don't get it all. That's bullshit. But when we've got that internal alignment, yeah. Like what I call integrity, then we can take those decisions, which as you said, From the outside, saying, My gosh, how are you doing that? And they just feel natural and honest, that you know what I can face into any adversity from this place? hard stuff becomes easy to bear because I'm aligned. Yeah. And conversely, if we make any decisions where we're not really internally aligned, then even things which don't look difficult become really hard and painful. Because we're out of alignment. Yeah, internally.
Rich Watkins
Yeah, I think that's a really good way of putting it.
Darius Norell
So talk about the job that you say you went into this kind of job after university talk about can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, you're kind of
Rich Watkins
So I'm there. Like, I basically left, you know, the only jobs I knew about what jobs that you could read about in a children's book, basically, right. So chemists felt like a job, right? I've heard about that. You know, there's test tubes, you work in a lab. And basically, it's like being in a chemistry class, but like all the time, right. So I kind of knew about that. But then I was working at BP and I was sent to this workshop, I think I got a bit I was going to, I thought about leaving to do a master's in international development. I was living in Reading, and they have a good department there. And I've always been interested in sort of international development type work. And I. So I was kind of interested in that. And I went to talk to my boss and said, I was gonna do that. And he was like, Whoa, like to have a think about it. You know, there's probably more interesting stuff we can get you doing here? Maybe not like, what about doing it next year? Like he was kind of delayed? And but anyway, what it meant is that I got sent to this workshop in Hamburg about what's the like, long term sustainable future of, you know, of BP of an oil company of like, energy, what does energy look like in 25 years, and I got involved in this big project that was about kind of figuring out where to spend all of the r&d investment, in order for it to be fit for an energy, like, changed future. So I got involved in this really big project. And I was there was only like, five of us on this project, like, I mean, big like important. And I was again, like a bit way out of my depth. Then I also did this other workshop and it was with an external agency called What If who were an Innovation Agency and they were supporting with the design of this workshop. And basically, I was just like, I just can't believe that these people do this for a job. Like I just like, what is that and so I just got talking to these was a lady called Bonita and a guy called Christian and some other people as well and I was just like, What is this like? What is this job? Anyway? I managed to get the the PA ad set up the project. I was good for comes with her. And so I just said, like, you got to give me their email addresses. Like, because I just really want to catch up with them. Anyway, so I contacted them anyway, they'd said that they'd noticed me in the workshop. And for all there's someone who's interesting, so we started conversations, but basically all the conversations when, like, you're 23, I'm not sure that you're ready yet. And, and I might, I just kept going, come on, there's got to be a way like, there's got to be a kind of way of doing this. And I, my good friend, Callum at the time, who was a good friend who was sort of, I guess, like, I guess, a decade older than me. But he, he was a management consultant. And this was sort of management consulting. So he helped me kind of helped me figure out sort of a different way of like, the job title that I was going for was calling in an inventor. And I was an r&d chemist, and he's like, what's r&d chemist? What do you do? And I was like, Well, I develop new engine oils, or whatever. And he's like, Oh, so you're an inventor then. And I was like, oh, like, you actually invent stuff? And I was like, Yeah, I suppose I do. So he got me to kind of think in a new way. And I was able to sort of like, position myself differently. And so we just started all these conversations. And eventually, they took a chance on me. And what I didn't know at the time, is they were like, well, let's just give them a go. And if he doesn't work out, no problem. But I didn't know that. Because I basically changed my whole life for this job. I. And it was such a funny experience, because this is just somewhere that really fitted me and my character and my way of approaching the world in a way that the jobs that I'd had before just didn't. And I felt I managed to get in that it was very difficult to get it notoriously difficult to get into this company. At that point, they're just one best company to work for two years in a row. It was like small, it was exciting. It was intense. It was incredibly hard work. And I got to basically work along I was like, you know, I didn't understand what was going on, really. But I got to work alongside these incredibly brilliant people who again, I apprenticed with, as in, I was there as the sort of junior consultant, working alongside these incredibly experienced people who've done all sorts of things before, and knew exactly what they were doing. And I had no idea. And, and basically, again, I did my second apprenticeship, and this apprenticeship was in. Okay, how do you solve complex problems with groups have seen, like we've seen here, groups of people? How do you, you know, persuade? How do you both develop ideas that make sense? But also, how do you generate momentum around those ideas? How do you get groups and client groups to really commit? Because again, it's sort of a bit of a mirror what was saying before? And when you talk about innovation, like launching a new product or something, it's the level of commitment as much as the level of the idea that gets you anywhere. So you know, so in this was all about, okay, well, how do you generate that sort of energy? And they probably, I'd say, that's the thing that they will well, class are actually more like, there's lots of good design consultancies and clever people thinking about ideas and management consultants. But what if at that time, and I'd probably still say, now, we're just really good at understanding how you generate momentum behind ideas and how you get, how do you get people emotionally and psychologically bought into something? So that they're ready to do it. And yeah, and then I was there for for eight years.
Darius Norell
So amazing story, and what an incredible opportunity. I mean, as you say, really, really sought after company very difficult to get into. And you managed to navigate that, that process as it were, or I basically snuck
Rich Watkins
in. Yeah. And I snuck I snuck in, because I had a science degree. And they were had more and more clients who were like pharmaceutical clients, and most of the people there were more from like arts and English and Philosophy and these sort of more backgrounds. And so in a way, like, they were like, oh, maybe it'd be kind of handy to have a scientist around because
Darius Norell
then we got some actually doesn't say anything will be fine, but just Yeah, right.
Rich Watkins
And it turned out that I was I'm an I'm a rubbish scientist. I'm actually much better suited to the world, those other worlds. And again, that's what I, you know, at 16 I had no idea about that. I just, you know, you just look at your grades and you go, Oh, I got a good grade in science. Maybe I should do science. And as I said, it. Yeah, you know, I didn't have the sense that there were other possibilities.
Darius Norell
So two things I want to pick up on. What do you think they spotted in you? When they when they saw you? Like in the workshops, they were running like what do you think they noticed? And
Rich Watkins
willing to speak up even though as young willing to speak up with things that connected to things that other people had said like so the ability to like deeply listen to others and not just, I wasn't like grandstanding. I like I get I get sucked into problems. I like to solve problems. And I've I like to do it with other people. And I've got a natural desire to join the dots between things and I think, just, I guess Yeah, and maybe a bit of you knows there's something about cheddar. It's hard to grasp because I don't I don't experience it. But like a kind of way with words, I guess. Now. Now, I think I've that also got gets me in trouble or has got me in trouble, because I spent some time having to unlearn. Talking too much. I was a chatty kid, I was like a school, I was reading my I got, I just my mom just dropped off all my school reports. She was like, We're done with all your junk in our house. Like take it so you know, I'm they're 40 years old, reading about what I was like, as an eight year old, what I was like, as a 10 year old. And basically everyone's like, he seems smart. But oh my goodness. He's chatty. Like one of the things was my big lesson, I got a really low score and was like, Richard needs to learn to stop walking around and talking to people. I think that's probably the thing that eventually got me this job is like, I like walking around and talking to people. And I like understanding their perspective. And I like thinking about how that connects with things that I think about. So I think there's probably that,
Darius Norell
can I can I offer another another one to see if that fits that just sensing into which is your ability to hold complexity? And I say that, because if you're in a small group of people say, Okay, what's the change energy future, like for an oil company, like, that's a pretty complex, big, undefined. And, and and, and so to be able to be comforted to have some little comfort in that or to be able to connect, you know, the sub to me, there's something around your ability to do that. I'm wondering,
Rich Watkins
yeah, I think that's that is true. And I think at that point, it probably came from naivety and and a sense that it wasn't my job to figure it out. So there was a real I mean, when I feel like that I'm very comfortable. One of the things I've had to traverse as it became my job, like what I had a big anxiety moving from sort of junior support role to lead role as a consultant. Like, in fact, I had so much trouble with it. That I ended up having to move to China, in order to be forced into a situation where I had to take the lead. And I did so amidst great panic amidst a desire for huge amounts of emotional support from people who thought that I was just going to be able to hold it myself. So So I think it's that transition was a really difficult one to wear. You know, but I think you're right, like I said, I think when I'm don't feel the pressure, then that that at that time, I didn't feel the pressure. And I was able to sit in those conversations, speculate widely. connect dots, question things, not feel the pressure of that as a big question. And then, you know, and then as an even in the early days at what if I was also like that, and then when I had to start taking responsibility, like, it's your job to figure out the answer to this. I did a few projects where I tried to take the same approach, like, oh, let's just see what happens. And got really badly burned in a couple of those, because let's just see what happens on a big complex problem is not the way to solve a complex problem. It's a way to participate in solving a complex problem, but if you're leading it, you need something different. And that so I was a bit naive with that, and then later, kind of began to think, oh, no, there's a job for me here. I don't know exactly what the answer is, but it's my job to plot a path that can get us there and to spot when we're not getting there. And that I think is getting I don't know if that's a I think that's again, something that you that I was apprenticed into rather than learn, like I don't think I could explain how to do it, but but now give me a bit knotty problem. Give me some big knotty problems not all. And and I can kind of find a way through to make sense of it. But yeah, so I think yes, you're right. And that also comes with that other side, which is up to a point. And then, and then I had a very difficult transition into that.
Darius Norell
So can you can you talk talk through a little bit more like, what's the experience in your body? Or you're about to lead a workshop? Or when is when does the anxiety start? Or how does it show up? Or what's what has worked?
Rich Watkins
Well, now, it's not so much but more like it was? Well, first of all, it was none, there was none. And then I just thought, I'll just give this a go. I'm happy to give everything a go. And then the crushing sense of like, you've really not done what was needed, the project did not go as well as you wanted, the workshop did not go as well as you wanted. And that having to kind of do a lot of, you know, a lot of sitting down with people who had been through those problems before to unpick what hadn't worked, what needed to work. And then, you know, then, and then I think it was just a sense of like, I'm not ready. Like, I'm not I've, I've not been through my career, someone who's been pushing for promotions. In fact, sometimes it's happened the other way, like, people have, like, nudged me like, you need to take this, you need to do that. I think I'm, I'm actually naturally quite cautious. And I'm, I don't like to overstep, I think you said in the intro, you said something like something quite solid. Like you've got something thinking quite solid, right? If I don't have something quite solid, I'm too. I don't have the bravado to go to the world with something that is not solid and say that it is. And that makes me very anxious. And that's a feeling of like, I'm going to be found out. It's but but I, I don't have that feeling when I feel like the finding out is okay, like the thing I've got is good enough. Like I don't. And I think that I've I guess one of the things I've learned is to distinguish when something is like good enough to share. And when something is like not. And again, I've learned that by doing a bunch of presentations that were good enough, a bunch of presentations that weren't good enough. And when I'm presenting something that's good enough, when I'm saying like, this is the road, you need to go as a company, or this is a new product you need to launch or this is, you know, these are the new set of organizational values that you that have emerged from this process. And I'm really confident that they're the right ones for you. Like when I'm in that I'm like, I feel it very easy to go into very even relatively hostile situations, because I feel like, what I feel like it's not me on show. And I feel like if there is any cracks in the work, then in a way, I'm like, I'm open to that. But I'm confident that there aren't from where I stand. And so I think I don't know if that answers the question. But that's, I guess that's where I went with it.
Darius Norell
Yeah, I guess I guess it comes back to this, again, don't overly projected, but this idea of being aligned is like, Okay, I'm gonna stand behind this thing or stand for this thing. And in a way, as I hear you get into this really healthy relationship, which is, look, I think this is great. I really tested it to my satisfaction. Yeah. And then almost welcoming. Look, if you can find something of Florida great. Like it's gonna make it stronger. Or if it's not as strong as I think it is. I want to know, because I don't want to take this out to someone else.
Rich Watkins
Yeah. So right now, I've got two projects on the go that are kind of that. So I'm sort of known for the let's go model, which is my way of thinking about collaboration. I did a TEDx talk. And as such says, collaboration is the thing we can understand. And there are these different dynamics. But I'm doing a project at the moment with Accenture, about how do you make meetings better, and meetings are kind of like collaborative. And I've basically developed a toolkit for that. But it's a beta test. So I've got people in a bit of Accenture trying out I've got some other people in other areas, like someone, couple of people from Save the Children, a couple of people from another insurance company, who are like trying out the tools. That's a great example where what I've got is good enough, but I'm really open to that one bit of it just really hasn't worked. And I'm like great news. It was too long. Anyway, let's ditch that bit. And then something else, which I hadn't even thought about is like the main event and needs to be completely reprioritized in it. But that feels like healthy, productive, grounded aligned in your language, like input. That's good. Yeah. And I've got another thing which is about how do we humans navigate change and how to Groups navigate change. And again, I'm getting some feedback. And someone said, it's too complicated. And someone said, it's like, hard to know how you would use it. And, and that I'm like, Wow, that's good. Yes, good thinking, because I know that it's, but that comes from this deep confidence that there's something in it. And I think that, like, if I don't have that, then I then I feel quite fragile. And I feel quite protective. And even in the early days of the let's go model, I think I sort of found this way of looking at groups that felt really almost like spiritually aligned and very kind of, ah, this, this sheds a new light, it gives a new distinction that's useful and usable, and powerful. But then, you know, in those early days, I either had to defend it with a lot of bravado, like, this is amazing, and people will be like, is it really though just another white guy with a model. And then, or I would have to really do it down, like, Oh, it's nothing. And I also had to kind of hide it from people, I was worried that people going to steal it or take it, or I had a lot of this kind of feelings. But as it's grown and developed, and as I've seen it work over like the last six years, I don't have that anymore, like I'm much more comfortable sharing it and much more. And I've developed enough stuff around it, that I'm not worried, I'm just not worried about it. I'm, I just like, know that it works. And that, I guess, is a confidence that comes from not like from the inside out, but just from iteratively. Like, I try it, and then you know, and then see if get some feedback, but it only works iteratively if I'm getting feedback. So it's why it's probably the thing that's I believe most of my career's just getting, you know, people telling me like, Hey, do you know, you came across a bit strong in that? Or do you know what, I think you're a bit narrow minded about that? Or I think, you know, have you thought about it from another point of view, or hey, you know, you're talking a lot about the ideas. But if you considered maybe investing a bit more in the relationship, or, you know, all of those kinds of feedbacks that that is, you know, those micro corrections, and I think that's sort of what an apprenticeship does of any sort like to be corrected in small ways, ongoing live, so that you can steer yourself in a good way.
Darius Norell
So what comes across speaking to you is this experimentation mindset, both externally of hey, I'm building creating something, inventing something, yeah, and continual tweaks and adjustments and the internal side of me like I want, I'm making small adjustments, micro adjustments, and maybe sometimes some big ones. Along the way, also, like, that's just part and parcel of say, who you are something that's important to you, and clearly works for you as a, as a way of being in the world.
Rich Watkins
Yeah, I think that's, that's, I think that's right on. And that's, you know, again, if we're connected to the ideas that are out there in the world about this, like design thinking or, in a like that is that idea, like, try little things that are safe to fail, get feedback, see how they work, develop, like learn, grow, welcome, feedback, set up experiments that you've got, there's a loop where you're going to hear how the experiment when, and in that way, build your sense of solidity. Rather than think, you know, spend a lot of time thinking be a creative genius, and then tell everyone how clever you are. And then home, you know, and then defend it against other people who are clever, and might want to pick a hole in it. In a way, it's more like, hey, come pick a hole in all my ideas. Come, come show me Come give your insight early on what's not quite right. And then let's see where we can go. And I think, you know, I think that works in some fields, and it's harder in other fields, I think the, the interior development has sometimes taken a bit more like, a bit more. Yeah, maybe some crisis moments. A bit more. And actually, that's been really, maybe more important, or I don't know if it's important or not, but that's the way it's gone for me, like a series of bigger kind of moments of reckoning.
Darius Norell
So maybe, can you speak to one of those, I was gonna ask him to work, you know, where do you you know, with this brilliant mindset, which is so powerful, and for me, I'd both admire and connect with. And I know there's places I can still get caught and sometimes get caught in a big way. And like, I just don't get the learning and maybe, maybe that's equivalent to what you're talking about. So can you talk about maybe a moment of reckoning that kind of
Rich Watkins
what would Yeah, I mean, one that's kind of an obvious one for me is like, I'd gone independent, and I really saw that so become an independent consultant. This is 2013. The is before I'd really found on what I was for in the world, so I was kind of still just like an innovation consultant left what if, but was just sculpt finding my way. And but the whole experience felt very fragile. And in fact, I had to keep giving myself a pep talk. This is an experiment, you're doing it for a year, you can always go and get a job after a year. But I went on a course called embodied leadership with the Strozzi Institute in California who've got roots in Aikido, which I know you're also your first done Aikido. And, and I basically went on this course. And that was in a way of really, I didn't really know what it was, someone had said it was, this is sort of, I've got this habit, someone says, this is the best course I've ever been on in my life. And there's someone I trust, and I just think I'm gonna go on it. And they don't really think like, what am I gonna do? Or what is this course for or anything like that? And often these costs quite expensive. And so I'm just like, Yeah, I'm gonna go on it like, and anyway, I went on it. And it was, you know, it was, it was like a seven day or maybe it was five days of like, quite intense meditation movement, inquiry, distinctions like. And that was a real moment where I realized that my fragility, which is what I was feeling wasn't just an idea of being more solid, like, I didn't need new ideas about solidity, I needed a new bodily experience of solidity. And like, quite practically, even just when I really connected with my body, I was always my weight was always on my toes. And I was always on my toes, like, almost like falling forwards into the next possibility, right? And learning to kind of sink into my heels as I stood physically, and also to sink into my experience. And not always be this sort of, like slightly frantic, slightly afraid. But facing my fear by experiments, like not just do that actually, rest then slowed down a little. And that was a real moment of reckoning. So I think that's one where you know, and often I've found these moments of reckoning supported in some kind of container, or some kind, of course, or some kind of process. And that was one that was, you know, but again, that's a talk about it in a dispassionate way, in a way, but basically, it was like going in, I felt, I was feeling incredibly fragile. And a lot of my emotional energy was worrying about where the next project would come from, whether it was whether I could do it, whether I was worth it and all of that, and afterwards, there was a kind of calmness that arrived. Now, the arrival to give you an identity, you can probably get how uncommon I was, but even with the arrival of that calmness, there was still a lot more calmness that needed to arrive. But that it was the first step towards, I guess, fostering some sense of calm, which wouldn't be a word that anyone would have described me as, because I was busy walking around between desks talking to everyone that is not a calm kid. And I was not a calm young adult and my energy in a way got me the job or what if but ultimately, it also got me in you know, the I've needed to develop some calm and yeah, to some extent I have
Darius Norell
Yeah, that sounds like a profound experience shift. And for anyone listening who's thinking about doing work in that field with an embodiment work somatic work that you've never done, you had at least to hear the word somatic, I was like, What is that like doesn't I don't know I've never really heard that you know, all about this connection to the body. Or you know, that can there's many different routes in and you mentioned the martial art, Aikido, it's a practice quite a bit and it's such a powerful, so at least I found it to be inserted, you have such powerful work opens up that kind of realm of experience. In a moment, many of us most of us aren't taught or learn how to be connected to a bot or even notice, hey, how can I ask any of my toes? And does that even matter what happens then if I do get into a more balanced posture and yeah, oh, wow. Carneros and now I'm able to
Rich Watkins
Yeah, I think we kind of have this in a way this cultural idea more like oh body languages of thing, right. Oh, how I appear to look to other people. You know, Theresa May standing with a legs enormously wide like all body Language she's saying something with her language. But But I think the the unlock for me on embodiment is realizing that it's not about saying something, it's actually about pausing to stop saying things. And, you know, we all know people who kind of have that sort of being with them is a kind of karma safer place. And that that's not some sort of esoteric or mystical quality, it's a quality of them in integrity with their own self, and body and everything like that. And that doesn't even that's not doesn't mean they've got like, super bodies in a sort of athletic sense, it just means that they're, you know, and again, I guess it comes down to the word presence, which I think is a very difficult word to, very difficult thing to actively work on. But it's the sort of thing that you really notice when someone has, and I think you don't have, I don't know, if you always develop it straight head on, I think sometimes you, you know, in a way experiences and life and reflection and activity and pause and rest and all these things. And integration, like can develop a kind of presence or can develop your presence, like as soon as you present.
Darius Norell
So many people are working with other people. And they find it challenging for you know, all the reasons you said right at the beginning. What are the some of the things that people could pay attention to that you found a really helpful, no matter what stage someone is the credit can be, you know, CEOs, senior that could be entry level, what are some things that you've found, hey, look, this is this is some ways to get into this work. And obviously, you've got people with you, but what's Yeah,
Rich Watkins
yeah, so I think the first thing I'd say is that we have an obsession with individuals. And so we think that to work well on a project, and even to work well, with just one other person, we think this, me and you working together, it's about me, knowing myself and me knowing yourself as two separate entities that are different. You know, maybe I'm extroverted, and you're introverted. Or maybe I'm, like, talkative, and you're reflective, or whatever language you have for it, right. And so a lot of work on team is kind of centered around this same idea, like, Okay, we have these individuals, each of them separate each of them distinct each of them a different person with a different personality and different strengths and weaknesses. If we can only understand very deeply and profoundly each person's individual qualities and behaviors and strengths and tendencies, then we're a team. And I think that's, well, I think sometimes that's a really fruitful activity. And sometimes it doesn't make you a strong team. And so the first thing I say is when we're thinking about groups is to think of the endeavor as a thing in and of itself. And this comes from my work with Gestalt, which is, I spent a lot of time studying at the Gestalt center in London, they think of the whole, and the Endeavor is a kind of whole, not a kind of added up individuals. And when you can ask, then you can ask different kinds of questions. Like you can say, okay, given this whole, given this group, or this activity, or this project, let's just call it that, right, given this project. Do not this every individual but the we have belief in the project? Do we believe that this is a good thing to do? And if we don't, then maybe there's some attention we could put to belief? Right? Do we not me, not you, but do we have an appropriate structure? Right, do we have kind of, do we know how long we've got? Do we know the boundaries that we're dealing with? Okay, okay, fine. Do we have good involvement? Like appropriate for the endeavor, like whatever it is we're doing? We're doing a podcast, right? Like, is the is it appropriate? Like the involvement that we have? And, you know, and then we go, is there progress? Are we making? Are we moving towards creating the kind of thing in the world that we want to create? And then the fifth is care like, is there? Is there an appropriate sort of sense that these the humans that we're with, have a have some sense of togetherness in the thing that we're here to do? And this is the let's go model belief, structure, involvement, progress and care. And they're not inquiries about you or about me, they're inquiries about us about the work that we're doing together. And I think that whoever you are, I think we've been so trained to focus on we think, oh, I need to make my team work better. So the two ways of doing that is one, well, just obsession with what it is that we're doing, and an obsession with tasks and Things like that, right? That's like one way that you can make things better. And another is an obsession with individuals like, who are you? Who is he? Who's she, you know, oh, well, she's a bit moody. Well, we don't want her on the team because she's moody or he's too controlling or hears this. And again, not saying those things don't matter. But I was speaking to a teacher once in the early days of developing the let's go model. And he said, what's kind of interesting for me as a teacher, secondary school teacher, he's like, he's like, people talk a lot about personality in the classroom. But personality only lies in like problem students, right, who have a different poll, they have a difficult personality, he's like, that only comes up when they're not actively engaged in the work. And you can kind of put any kid when they care about the project. And they're doing it with people. And it's like they're doing it, like, everyone's absorbed in what they're doing. And that kind of absorbed nurse bypasses some of the peculiarities of us as individuals. And so I think when we think about groups, actually, I encourage people to, in a way, think about it more simply, and instead to think of the endeavor by but what is it that we're here to do, and then ask questions about the Endeavor together. And that's basically the foundation of all my work is really just that simple idea that, that we don't have to, to make a team work or to make a group work to make a project work. You don't have to. You don't have to understand deeply, every individual that you're working with, and of course, mostly we don't have time to. Yeah. So we couldn't even if we wanted to,
Darius Norell
just to make sure I've got it clear in my mind. We you might be then checking in with people's individual sense of the whole like, right, yes, we're still getting individual No, I'm not trying to pretend that I'm in the way that I can see,
Rich Watkins
I can't see it. I don't know if I believe or not, I have to say things like, Do we have belief? Do we believe in this? And then someone might be like, Oh, I don't know, really. And then you're like, Oh, that's interesting. And this also extends to when someone says, oh, I don't know where this project is going. I think it's a waste of time, we stopped thinking, Oh, it's Dave, again, is like dreary Dave with his, like, lack of belief in our project. Oh, if only we could get Dave out of the project. It's more like, oh, Dave is saying something that is indicative, probably, to some degree of all of us, in a way he's bringing something not just from Dave, but from the group. And if Dave feels like, it doesn't really believe in what's going on, maybe at least Sarah probably feels it a bit, but doesn't want to talk about it. And someone else feels it a bit. So it's this idea that yes, the only only and I sometimes overstate it, right? But it's so it's not that the individuals don't matter. But the individuals give us a clue as to what really matters, which is whether this endeavor is going to fly. And this endeavor is going to fly to the next. And now I think a group can probably handle a bit of a mix of all of these things. So we're not trying to create utopia, like, we're not trying to, like it might be that in a conversation, I don't feel super involved. Like I don't feel like I've got the right expertise, or I'm not really being listened to or something like that. There's a bit of tolerate think that you know, a group, there is no perfect answer to any of these questions. And so, groups normally have some discomfort. And the discomfort might be different for different individuals, because different individuals want different amounts of personal connection or, you know, progress or different amounts of structure. So everyone's got their preferences. But fundamentally, we're asking the question, is there enough, given what we're here for? And is there enough for all of us to tolerate? And that might mean that I have to tolerate a bit more structure than I would normally normally prefer? But, but the we're collectively negotiating something like an an in a good enough structure? Yeah. And what really becomes noticeable is, if there isn't a good enough structure, you'll see a lot of anxiety in people, you'll see a lot of chaotic kind of a lot of power plays, because people don't know what the structure is a lot of feeling of a bit unsafety. Right. And so you can it, it's not mystical like that is a sign that there's not enough structure. If there's a lot of lethargy, people don't turn up. People don't really care, like, you see that as well. And that might be a lack of belief. And that will, again, that group that lacks belief will look and feel different to a group that lacks structure, and that will look and feel different from a group that lacks involvement or lacks progress, or the team that lacks care like If there's no care, yeah, we've got a great project, we've got the right structure, but there's not care, then you get feelings of resentment, you might get cliques forming. So these things in a way aren't problems. They're signals that signals that something isn't working in the collective, and and a team that doesn't have enough care. You might, if you notice that, and you're in that group, and you're like, yeah, there's not really enough care in this group. You could talk about it. And this was one of the things you can do like reliable things. Like, let's go for lunch. Like lunch is a human basic way of building care in groups. Just have some lunch together. You know, even if, you know, you don't even have to have a particularly spectacular lunch doesn't have to be particularly tasty. But if you sit down with humans, and you share food with them, it begins to soften up something. And it might take a few lunches, right. And it might you might not create the deepest relationships you've ever had, you might you might be able to bear with each other a little more different conversations might be possible. Like, you know what, I'm finding this project really tough. Ah, me too. Now, maybe we feel a bit more connected in our shared frustrations. Ah, yeah. And your frustration. So with me and my frustration, so with you, ah, that's a shame. Hmm. But I've maybe got a bit more empathy with you now that I can see that. So these, that's, I guess that's the thing that's with grit. And all my work is like building tools that help people navigate those distinctions. You know, trainings that support people to navigate those distinctions, I got a facilitator training facilitators who wants to be working more with groups and would benefit from a framework that they can then use their own facilitation skills with and through.
Rich Watkins
Yeah, and that's sort of you know, and they're the lenses, I tend to look at most things through. And I guess I'm, and that comes from my practice. Just thinking how to where to groups go wrong will go wrong, because of a lack of care, or a lack of structure, or a lack of belief, or a lack of involvement or a lack of progress.
Darius Norell
So I think, again, for anyone listening, we'll put links into the, into the sort of notes, the show notes. It's such an, I find this whole area of a fascinating myself, and, to me, the skills I've learned along the way, which kind of align with what you're talking about. I've just been so valuable, so helpful, to make this even just to make an impact and get stuff done. to demystify, hey, why is that? Why is this feel like this a while we, you know, we're really trying everyone wants to be but we're not, you know, it's, again, a whole area of exploration that for most of us as, as the invisible unexplored, that I've seen make a huge difference. So yeah, encourage people listening to get deeper into the work. Yeah, I just, as I said, seen it make a massive difference for myself. And sounds like you, you have to, both for you and in the people that you work with. By way of closing, how's this conversation been? For you?
Rich Watkins
Yeah, it's been nice. I've, I've sort of enjoyed the, I guess, like, we've done a bit of a dive through some of my history. And that always feels don't know, there's something quite grounding about that, like a reconnecting with some of that. And probably I've said some things or seen some things in new ways that I haven't really, I wouldn't have had to mind because that's can only happen in conversation. So yeah, it was kind of it was it was I feel quite warm. I feel quite like I guess just having the I feel quite lucky to have had the chance to look back and and I guess seen connected some of the threads between, you know, the journey that I've gone on and so I'm quite appreciative to you for I guess giving me the the the your attention
Darius Norell
Well, I really appreciate it when I acknowledge how you've shown up - at least from my experience, very open - I think you've shown remarkable way of looking at yourself and talking about it with a high degree of skills and I know that's not that down to me, I certainly I appreciate and people and I acknowledge you for that because I think it's it's it's lovely to be in conversation with someone who's able to be so fluid and skilled in it. and free talking about those things as well. Thank you.
Outro
Darius Norell
so think looks to take away from that episode I really appreciated firstly, I guess how Rich showed up in his openness and willingness to look at himself and self awareness made for getting to some depth relatively quickly. And I think there's so much that we could have covered. I was struck by his sort of owning of our early in my career, I really was trying to make a good impression and be credible, and just and also how uncomfortable and ineffective it was. And I think there's so much you know, so many of us feel that urge to pretend in some way that somehow or feel that we need to be better than we are, or might get found out. And I didn't really didn't use the word imposter syndrome, although I felt like maybe we're coming into that territory, potentially at different points. But the power of noticing the urge to be different from what's really there. And then also what happens when we are in our element. And it sounds like a couple of times, people really seeing something in him and saying, Hey, no, you're the right person for this. And, you know, getting into this incredibly difficult, highly sought after company, sort of through the back door, because there was something about him and sort of a little bit that was shining in that moment that was like, Hey, this is me. And I felt Rich lit up when he was really in that place. That was the thought I'd never been in such a place that we felt such a good fit for me. And so just to hold that out as a possibility for all of us that there is a place where we might really fit, feel really great able to do great work. And that we might stumble into it a little bit rather than being super intentional about it not not as at one with being super intentional, but or, or doing the work to make it happen. But also being open to allowing it to happen. And I think the conversation around integrity and following that as a you know, a great when I'm feeling aligned, that's a place of strength, but we follow that. And even if it doesn't make the most rational sense, I'm going to trust something good is going to happen from this place. Again, it's kind of shown at different levels certainly in Rich's path that's really paid off for him. So as usual, hope you enjoyed that love to get your questions, comments, challenges. Anything else you feel like I should be following up on covering the future episodes. Love to hear from you. Thanks again.
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