#3. Perspective - Alexandra Purpura & Nana Appiah
"Is this point of view serving me?"
Alex is back to catch us up on the fallout from her previous podcast, while Nana reflects at the end of his time with the team. Alex shares what she has noticed after starting the conversation with herself of where she is going, her deeper connection to her process, and her relationship with accountability - as well as how her mindsets around all these topics, and how they affect her outcomes. Then Nana reflects on how his confidence has grown over the last six months, how his mindset has shifted during that process, and discovering new abilities that he didn’t know he had. Together, Alex and Nana offer a brilliant example of self-reflection, with bravery and honesty, and unearth some real gold about the perspectives we form on ourselves - and how we can choose to look at ourselves anew.
Listen to full episode :
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Welcome to episode 3 of What’s Your Work? Alex was previously a guest on episode 2, which you can listen to here.
The placements at People and Their Brilliance were offered through the Kickstart Scheme, a government initiative to support young professionals at risk of long-term unemployment. You can read more about the Kickstart Scheme here.
People and Their Brilliance was a Kickstart Gateway offering recruitment and funding support, as well as Radical Employability Training for those in post. If you are interested in receiving or delivering Radical Employability Training, you can read more about it here.
Interested in the topic of perspective? We have a blog post on our website which you can read here.
Alexandra Purpura worked as a Recruitment Administrator for People and Their Brilliance and is now continuing to work part time in recruitment whilst pursuing her career in music. You can connect with her on LinkedIn @Alexandra Purpura.
Nana Appiah worked as a Digital Marketing Specialist for People and Their Brilliance. He completed the Kickstart Scheme in October 2021.
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Darius Norell
Okay, welcome to this episode of our little podcast exploring the world of work. What's your work? We'll be talking, as you'll hear, to Alex and Nana today. Let's see where we get to.
Darius Norell
So welcome. Both of you. Nana this is your first time, your first time in the studio. Great to have you here. Thank you for being here. And Alex, you've come back. For more.
Alexandra Purpura
I didn't think I'd still be here. But we've made it.
Darius Norell
We've made it. Okay. So for those of you that haven't watched the last one, we did a session with Alex, where it was kind of an intro session. Exploring, you're I'm gonna say your musical career for want of a better phrase of your interest in that work you've done, motivation. And so I'd love to check in on anything, any kind of reflections on last time if there's anything that's that's kind of there, you had a few things that you were going to do. So I'd love to explore how you've got on with those if you've done anything. And Nana you've just finished six months placement. And so I thought we could get on to kind of reviewing your experience what you've learned, what you're thinking about next. Again, other people going through many similar situations. So how does that sound for you? Both?
Alexandra Purpura
Sounds good.
Nana Appiah
Ready. Good to go.
Darius Norell
Anything you're hoping that we cover in this session?
Nana Appiah
Pretty much what you've said would be good start.
Darius Norell
Okay. Thank you.
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah, I'm ready to delve back in.
Darius Norell
Okay. So as you sit here now, reflection on the last conversation we had, how was it?
Alexandra Purpura
Um, I think it was a lot of it kind of not forced me, but like to have a conversation with myself about, you know, my abilities, my capabilities and my drive and where I'm going. I think it made me a little bit sad afterwards, because I guess when you put into the perspective of, yeah, I'm doing the music, but I'm not doing anything. It's like, Well, nothing's gonna Yeah, sort of, like nothing's going to drop out of thin air just be like, Oh, here you go, record deal, whatever. So like, I think it made me reflect on the kind of the boundaries that I put off myself, as well as other boundaries as well, that that like, has stopped me. And it's stopping me from like, pursuing that kind of career path. So that was kind of where I was like, reflecting at that point.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Well, thank you for that. I think it's an honest, beautiful reflection, and the sadness, I'm gonna say, it's a healthy sign of confronting reality of, I've got this thing inside me that's big and important. I'm not making the progress on it that I want and would like and I'm, and I'm gonna use a strong phrase, I'm kind of almost lying to myself about it, right? Like, somehow it's gonna happen, but it's not really happening. And nothing's gonna change unless I change something. So sadness would seem like an appropriate response to that. And in that is the opening of okay. Do I want something to be different? Yeah. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. The other thing, which again, was brilliantly phrased by you was, I'm facing barriers. Some of those are my barriers, barriers I'm putting up and there's plenty of external barriers, no question. And some of them you're putting up? Yeah. And there's a lovely phrase I think you've probably heard me talk about which is, most people reach the limits of their belief before they reach the limits of their talent. Yeah, so you're an incredibly capable able person on multiple fronts, from what I know of you. And so probably very true for you, right, your beliefs about what's possible or not. And I think we even came up against it in the last session, right. And one particular area stood out for me, which is, oh, there's this person that would be amazing to have as a mentor. But there's no way I'm going to reach out to them. It didn't seem available to you or possible. Yeah. Which I'm going to suggest is your that's you limiting yourself in that view. So anything else you want to say? Off the back of just, yeah, what we covered last time, how you -
Alexandra Purpura
No, okay. Yeah, I think I'm okay.
Darius Norell
Great. So you had a quite a few different things. I think you were, you know, you were going to do some of which you seemed very motivated about, others, I was sort of I'm asking you to do, how have you got on? What's What have you done that you can talk about?
Alexandra Purpura
So I think we probably know what's the thing that I didn't end up doing. But I did end up doing like three out of four of those sort of like tasks, like, starting, like getting the ball rolling. So I, you know, I emailed back that guy that had reached out to me, he was being pretty vague about the whole when I could go, so I was just like, Okay, I'm just gonna do it myself. So I'm just gonna go open mic night, make just do that. Yeah. And then I reached out to my friends, Silke, who's a drummer, she just moved to Brighton like a couple months ago. So we've just been like, kind of chatting and talking about, like, how to kind of involve ourselves more with the Brighton music scene. So just talking about the Brighton music scene, because she's experienced it, I've experienced it. It's quite like competitive. It's very different. Like she's from Oxford and all the bands know each other. Like they all have this beautiful, kind of like coalition. And like in Brighton, I haven't seen it that much just over the last few years that I've been here. So it was yeah, it was an interesting conversation to have with her. But she's away right now. So we haven't been able to kind of touch base. And then I really struggled with the song part, like finishing a song, right? I did it last night at like, 10pm. I just finished this song just like composing it. And I was and I felt really good about myself. But it did remind me of you know, like being back at school and having deadlines and waiting to the last minute. And without that kind of it made me reflect Oh, without those deadlines, I don't do any thing. I don't complete things like I don't like without this podcast, I probably would have just like sat there and been like, I'm not going to do it. Like I got to like half seven last night, I started writing the song at about six. And then I had like a two hour phone call with my mom. And I was like, I'm just not gonna get it done. And then I just whipped my headphones on after the phone call and just like, played around with it and just got it done. And I felt good. I was like, I really liked the song. And I can't wait to like actually record it and get it out there. And I don't have to worry about the composition because it's there. It's done. Like it's just it's just getting some lyrics kind of like shoved in for like the second part. But ya know, like to have that foundation, I think because I could spend years on working on one song right? Yeah, I could spend years working on like a little part of a song and never finishing it. So that was like, that felt good. I've missed. I miss doing that. I've missed having like that structure. And deadline. I know, I'm just one of those people that you know, will work towards the end of a deadline, like, and that's fine. Like it works for me. It's worked. It's worked during university. It's worked during school. It's it's so I'm not like to like, bothered about it at the moment. But then yeah, the final thing the mentor,
Darius Norell
So let's just pause there. Yeah. So firstly, amazing. Congratulations. I'm looking at your face. It looks really happy. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's exciting. What I'm hearing is some sort of judgement or negativity about your process. Yeah. I'm curious about that. Right? Because one frame could be like, oh, you know, like being back at school or whatever. You know, another could be, oh, wow, this is how I work. Good to know about myself. So let me set up my conditions around me where that's a feature.
Alexandra Purpura
I think part of it is because I always need some sort of external kind of pressure. And I've, and I guess it doesn't feel right.
Darius Norell
Great. So we're back in your own limiting beliefs and judgments. Yeah. So one frame is, oh, I should be able to do it myself. I'm so inspired. It's just I shouldn't need a deadline or is that right? I should just be doing it anyway. Yeah. Right. So that's a view that you have about yourself. Like, it could be great artists don't do that. Does that? Yeah. Does that sound like an accurate view? Is that what you think?
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah. That's, that's how it's always been.
Darius Norell
So So, one, one inquiry might be I wonder how true that is. Right. And, and I'm not going to claim to be any expert on artistic creativity. But even from what I've seen, I don't think that's true at all in terms of people's process. But anyway, that could be one view that you could then beat yourself up about, like, I'm not like that, or why aren't - and you could spend the next rest of your life in that kind of gap. Or another view would be like, oh, so I work best when I got a deadline that gets my creative juices going and gets me finished. So how do I build in and find support to have deadlines to work to I'm going to create a lot, which is what I want to do. That makes me happy. Does that sound so bad?
Alexandra Purpura
No, not when you put it that way. Yeah.
Darius Norell
Because your intention is to create and you love creating. And you know what works for you is to have a deadline. So what's the implication of that?
Alexandra Purpura
I guess it's finding someone to hold me accountable. I guess like that's, that's the main aspect it my mom has always been that person in my life that has held me accountable. Like, it's very reminiscent of when I was like, six, seven, learning how to play the violin. And my mum was like, we can stop if you don't want to, but you need to practice like, you have to be able to do your exams. And I was like, No, I want to practice I want to keep going. And it was like, she put that pressure on me. It's like, we don't have to do it. But obviously, I loved it. And I liked learning that instrument. So having that constant, like every few weeks, every few months being like, we can stop if you want. And I like that is always just reminded me of how I like kind of function and having someone there being like, you don't have to do music. Like you said last week, you said you can do option one, and not do anything. Or you take option two, and you do it. And I think it relates to that self belief. And a lot of times, I can't consistently remind myself that I am good enough, and I can do it. And I do have that ability. So for me, I need I need that support. And I need like my mom or my friends or whatever to just or you, like my boss like to, I guess keep believing in me. So I can believe in myself. And I will start believing in myself when I see the outcomes of it, I guess as well like to be like, Oh, I did actually finish a song. I am capable. Right? Like, that's sort of how I see it at the moment.
Darius Norell
So that feels very clear. Yeah. And I want to explore if it's helpful. I mean, but I'm going towards the sort of noticing still some that you think that's worse? Yeah, than I should be able to do this without all that.
Alexandra Purpura
I honestly, I couldn't. I couldn't give you like a concrete reason as to why I believe that or why I just, it's it's easy to see what people present to you and how they function and how they work and not know what's happening, you know, behind closed doors. And I genuinely like I was on the phone to my mom yesterday. And I genuinely do believe that everyone can just do things. And they don't have to have this intense pressure. But then I'm talking to like my friends. And they're like, oh my god, like I left my essay to the last minute. And I do it every single time. And I need that. Like, I'm not part of it feels like I'm I'm like I'm the only person that thinks this way. And like has to have these like, like, and there's also that aspect of relying on someone makes me feel more than adequate and like, not kind of cut out for the real world. Yeah.
Darius Norell
So I wanna point to this, right, these are all views you have? Yeah, you're doing a brilliant job of saying yeah, yeah. And rather - one frame is like, are they right or wrong? Right. Is that true? So different frame is, is this a useful view? Right? Does it serve me? Do I create more by holding that view? Right? Because some people would hold that view? They're like, Oh, yeah, that helps me create a lot. Or some people have that view. And like, yeah, it gets in the way it doesn't help me create. What I hear is, it's getting in the way for you. And the creative process, right? We're vulnerable. Yeah. All people are like this, is it any good. All the things that, you know, the doubts and questions, even when it's fantastic. Right? I mean, let's talk about this, this podcast, it's a creation, I love doing it. I believe in it. It's really helpful for me to have a sense check of hey, does this sound useful? You know, how was that, you know, because that helps to calibrate. And make sure I'm not getting carried away or kind of misaligned. But and also, we've got a routine. Okay, right for me every week, we're going to do one, right, that helps to force as a forcing function to make it happen. Yeah. Because otherwise I could get fooled into 100 different things. So just really encourage you to look at two things you're great at seeing what's in your mind is fantastic. Is it actually serving and helping me. Does it feel nice to hold that view? Like it's so these are all things to look at and then you can play around with, so you could do because you talked about creating a little like a little community of people to support, you could say right, every week I'm going to release a new - I want to play a new song to you this mini group of people 5-10 people. That becomes a forcing function of well I better get done then. Yeah. That may not feel like oh, that's not quite like seeing a deadline it's just I'm doing a performance of a new song. But I said I'm going to do it so that'll make me do it. Does that feel different? Is that what a great artist might do? Doesn't feel so bad? No. Okay, so that's so that's for you to play - I mean, I've come up with that, right? That's for you to play around with, of how do I hack my brain to present something that feels good? Yeah, that you want to go towards, which is going to get you the result that you want. And it's, you know, it's a lovely thought of, well, I should just, this should just come out of me anyway, naturally, like, that's not my experience of certainly my brain or other people's. Yeah, the skill is understanding what do I need to do to trigger the action that I want? Let me set that up, and then I create. Is that helpful?
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah, I agree. I agree with it a lot. It's something to like, it's frustrating, because I'll say like, I'm gonna work on it. But like, I should just do it. So why am I not doing it?
Darius Norell
Yeah. So that's a whole world of judgments. Yeah. You could inquire into that for years. Yeah, or just step back from, okay, does does that approach help me create? Does it? No. Great. So then we could look at a different approach, which is what?
Alexandra Purpura
The things that do make me create, for example, so like, having that deadline or performing every week and holding yourself to a - I don't, yeah, not holding myself because I don't think I can hold myself at the moment, whatever that means. But to have other people hold me accountable. Yeah.Other people that care and will actually like, invest that time into it as well. So yeah.
Darius Norell
Does that help?
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah, it helps I just, it's like will I do it? That's the question. It's with art because obviously like this is the last time I'll be on this podcast I'm assuming for quite a while if not indefinitely, but like without that pressure of you being there and having to tell listeners that you know, Oh, I did it, I didn't. Yeah. It's, I'm finding it still hard to connect it to my self belief and my values and yeah, so it's a weird one. I don't really know how to explain it at this point.
Darius Norell
Okay. What else do you need?
Alexandra Purpura
Um
Alexandra Purpura
I don't know. I think just having someone to hold me accountable is like the best. It is just the best thing for me. It always has been.
Darius Norell
Okay, so would you like to work through that together? As in like, the process of what you want to set up for yourself? Yes. Yeah. So who would you like to hold you accountable? Like, if you could choose anyone who would you who would you? It doesn't have to be one person either. It could be a little group but who? Who comes to mind?
Alexandra Purpura
I don't know. I mean, my first my first like the people that I see the most on a day to day it would be like you like that is like one of the first people but just kind of outside work.
Alexandra Purpura
Like the only other person I could think of is like my mom, but I don't see her a lot.
Darius Norell
And so this this collective, you talked about setting up like a little musical collective community of people talking about music and the scene and how it's going and so on, right? And you made a step towards that with your friend who's coming down to Brighton. Is that a group to go to or not? Is that a different? That's different?
Alexandra Purpura
I just haven't explored it fully yet. So I'm not I'm not entirely sure how that might. How that might pan out.
Darius Norell
Okay. Would you like it to be me?
Alexandra Purpura
For the time being.
Darius Norell
Okay. Yeah, great. So what would you like?
Alexandra Purpura
I guess someone to ask, like, have you been doing this? Have you been have you set up a gig have you? Have you been writing? Like, I think it's more like the prompt and the reminder. Because well, life can get very, you know, hectic and busy and, you know, maybe just like a check in. So I have someone to say to be like, look at my progress. I just want I just want something to see my progress I think.
Darius Norell
And how frequently would you like that? Once a week. Okay. So may I make a suggestion? Well, actually, the last question is so you said for the moment? Yeah. What what would be a kind of a time for - how long is for the moment?
Alexandra Purpura
Well, I would like to really set up this community in Brighton and have us all hold each other accountable. So I guess like maybe maybe like two, three months, okay, of checking in. Because the other aspect of it is that as if I'm checking in with you like on a weekly basis, and it's and I'm writing more music and I'm building up a repertoire and I'm doing, I'm having that kind of like, consistent deadline. Yeah, I think I will just start to feel more confident in myself.
Darius Norell
Great. So let's, so this is where we work it through. And this is the bit where we take all of that energy, and then convert it into some real, see what happens. So let's imagine we're going to do this till the end of this year, which is two or three months. So we're now standing at the end of the year, looking back over this period, that's just happened. How many songs would you like to have completed over that time?
Alexandra Purpura
I probably like bang out like seven.
Darius Norell
Okay, seven songs. So that's about one a week. Yeah. Does that sound like -
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah, and I would like I've always wanted to be able to do like, just to do that.
Darius Norell
Great. So, so we could check in weekly. Yep. And one of those checkins would be okay, have you completed your next song? Yep. Yeah? And then it sounds like you've also got some other ideas about the number of having gigs or have other other progress you'd like to make? Yeah. So what I suggest is that you write that down, and just like, by the end of this period, this is what I'd like to have done. And then split it over the time. So we can see, you know, per week, what does that mean? Or am I checking every two weeks have you booked a gig or is it, Yes, two gigs, I 't know what the, but then we can get some quantum of oh, that that's what you that would be what feels satisfying. Yeah, like, Okay, if I've done that, then that would feel like on track. Yeah. And then we can check in on it. Yeah, that's good. What would you like me to ask you when we check in?
Alexandra Purpura
Um, I guess the more practical questions of like, how how's it going? How's like the songwriting going? Have you booked gigs? Or gone for open mic nights more? Yeah. Where do you feel that you're progressing? Maybe where you're struggling with it? Because I know some weeks I struggle with it as well.
Darius Norell
So is there any reason that you wouldn't have completed a song?
Alexandra Purpura
If I just have a really hectic week, I think. But then it like, it's also it's very hit and miss. Sometimes I can finish a song in 20 minutes. And sometimes it takes two days. So it's...
Darius Norell
So for me if we were working together this way, what what I'm bringing that I feel like would be supportive is just to have it as a really clear, like, when when you come to the check in you come with a completed song. Yeah, like that. That would be the rule.
Alexandra Purpura
Oh, yeah. Can I show you the song?
Darius Norell
That's what you would like to do. And the difference is this: sometimes you might be coming with a completed song, that you think you know, this is not the quality I would like. Yeah, but it's complete. Yeah. And that for me, the discipline of that is really helpful. Otherwise we get into oh it's not quite right, or it could be better. And then then we've lost momentum versus okay. That's done. I agree with that. Done. Done three, done four, you know what there's two that weren't very good. My next one, I'm going to combine those two and take some bits and you know, fine, I don't have to put on the album. Yeah. Right. But there's a rhythm and discipline of, I don't get to choose whether I complete this. It gets completed, whatever the quality is the quality. Yeah. And then again, just looking at what's going to be helpful, like if it's helpful to okay, like, if I'm gonna play it to you, that's going to help me get good quality. Right, but I've got to whatever I'm going to do. I'm gonna, I'm just going to show you what I've produced. Does that does that is would that be helpful?
Alexandra Purpura
Yes, like 100% that would be helpful.
Darius Norell
Great. And I get to listen to a song every week.
Alexandra Purpura
There you go, win-win.
Darius Norell
You don't seem too excited about it.
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah no, it's like the criticism or like, what are they thinking? What are they...
Darius Norell
Do you want me to criticise your song? Um, no? No. Good. Because I don't know how to do that. Yeah. I'd love to be a witness to it. Yeah, your process. You created something and want to honour that. It's a beautiful thing. So what else would you like would be helpful? Does that feel like that does it? Is there anything missing?
Alexandra Purpura
Um, I don't know what you can offer as well. Because I know we've talked outside of this like with like contacts and stuff. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what...
Darius Norell
Well this is going to be number four, we're going to come back to right. Yeah. How do you expand your network in a very meaningful way? Because I'm not a good person. In terms of my connections into the music industry, yeah, I have lots but that I mean, generally, generically, I have lots of different connections. But the music industry, I'm gonna say, generally, I'm pretty weak. However, we will come on to if it feels the right time and talking about okay, how do I build my network? Yeah. So anything else on the check in at the moment, that would be so we could do a weekly check in, you're going to map out everything you want you to feel satisfied with the progress, what you would have achieved? Well, then break it, you'll break it down, week by week of what that looks like. And then we'll talk about okay, so where have you got to or not, and all I'm gonna do is just ask you the questions, there's gonna be no judgement, there's not going to be oh you need to do better or differently. It's just going to be a way for you to have a point in time where you're measuring your own progress. Yeah. And you will come to those with a finished song each week.
Alexandra Purpura
That sounds great. Yeah.
Darius Norell
Great. Okay, shall we move on to number four of your of your so you did three out of four, a real acknowledgement, well done. So four for those of you wondering, like, what's this mysterious number four that Alex, sounds like, hasn't done? We'll find out. Was, you had a - I can't remember the person's name. A singer, who was really? Oh my gosh, their musics amazing. I'd love to have them as a mentor. I don't feel able, it's possible to reach out to them. And so that wasn't the action wasn't to reach out to them. It was. It wasn't. That's wasn't my recollection. But great. Okay, so what did you hold as the action and to reach out to them?
Alexandra Purpura
I understood that it was to write, you know, inquire and say, Oh, I really enjoy your music. Would you have any chance of like having, like, 10-15 minutes to chat? Or to look through? Yeah. And, and you didn't do that? I didn't do that.
Darius Norell
So that wasn't my recollection of what the action was. So I think we talked about that. Okay, you said oh that doesn't, I'm not up for doing that so you're really clear. What I think the action was I said, okay, well, there's this course that you could look at. That would be a here's how to reach out, that you would do that as a step to build your knowledge skill understanding of is it okay to do that? How would I do that?
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah, I misunderstood that. Okay. Did you get the course? I got the course. haven't signed up. Okay. Yeah. Just putting it out there.
Darius Norell
Okay. So that's okay. And again, what I want to point to is just noticing how we get in our own way. So there was one action, which you didn't want to go towards. That I think you were clear about. I think we came up with a different action does this ring a bell now? We came up with a different action?
Alexandra Purpura
I remember, I remember talking about the course. But I still came away thinking oh, I need to contact Miss Phoebe Bridgers.
Darius Norell
Yeah. And so that's what I'm talking about getting in your own way. Yeah. Because you're gonna say, oh, I really don't want to do that. If that's what I've got to do, I'm not doing it. And then that overrides the other step, which was oh, actually, okay. Let's forget about that. For the moment. Let's take this step to inquire into how would I even go about such a thing? Is that okay, what would that mean? And let's hear some of the stories of how people have done it. So this is what our brains do. We kind of take away the opportunity for our progress with growth and learning because it's something oh, we don't want to do that. And even though this is another thing that sounds like you're up for doing. You got bucketed into oh, well, it sounds like that. And I said no to that. I don't want to do it. Yeah. Okay. So do you want to do the course?
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah, I want to, I want to see that perspective, because it's not something that I would ever go around doing.
Darius Norell
So we might have you back on? Because I think it'd be, you know, it's an amazing, and we might, you know, I'm gonna see if I can get Olly who built the course, this is build a better network for those of you that are wondering what the course is, see if I can get Olly on. And then you could do the course and he could join, and we have a chat about it. Anything else?
Alexandra Purpura
No, I think that was it.
Darius Norell
Great. Yeah. Nana. So you've been patiently listening. Thank you for that. What are you taking from that conversation? What are you hearing about where Alex is at on what's going on?
Nana Appiah
It was very interesting, just to hear Alex's perspective on what you asked her to do. It was just interesting because I don't really know - I Listen to music, but I don't really know much about actually making music and yeah, just the whole process is, it's interesting because I did relate to some of what Alex said about feeling pressured or having someone to be there to tell you oh do this, I can relate to that at work, because sometimes when I have tasks to do, I think I work better when somebody's like, this needs to be done by this time. And yeah, so I do feel, sometimes you need a bit of pressure just to get that extra push to produce your best piece of work. In my opinion.
Darius Norell
Yeah, so this is being smart. I want to draw out a point that, you know, both you said, you recognise yourself and what Alex was saying in terms of, it's really helpful for your best work to have a deadline to have that pressure. And so there's, maybe one thing to take from this conversation, is this, to have permission to go okay, that's how I work, how do I set things up for myself, so I have those deadlines? Because you've been in a role these last six months where there wasn't a lot of external pressure, right, there was, I think, very little, you've got to get this done by this time. You had to take a lot of initiative, decide what you wanted to do, does that feel accurate? Yeah. And so the kind of genius breakthrough is okay, well, given that it's not coming externally, naturally, how do I create that for myself? A little bit, like we've talked about with Alex in terms of okay, well, this is a way of artificially creating deadlines. How do you do that for yourself? And so I just want to, I want to sort of just highlight a way to work with your brain in that way, just given how you are. Does that does that make sense?
Nana Appiah
Yeah. I guess it's just I know, it is a hard one, because I think it depends on the person how you work? Well, I think the best way is to just plan what you're going to do. And I think putting like of incentive to it. So it will just make you want to get stuff done. So always saying if I get this done, I'll do this, or I can move on to something, something positive to make you keep pushing and getting that work done. So I think an incentive will help.
Darius Norell
And as you said, everyone's different, right? This is why we say "what's your work?" It's doing, knowing yourself and knowing what's going to work for you in order to create and perform at a high level. Different people need different things. And even the same person needs different things at different times based on what's going on. So one of the things I'd like to do with you Nana is do a little review of how was your six months? Yeah, you know, how satisfied are you with it? Learnings, insights, reflections? Where do you go next? Okay, so what I ask is to do an overall score between zero and ten. And as you know, my scoring there's no number seven. So what score would you give your six months working?
Nana Appiah
I'd give an eight and a half. Or an eight because I know you don't like the halves.
Darius Norell
I don't mind halves, as long as it's not a six and a half or a seven and a half. But yeah, okay. So eight and a half.
Nana Appiah
Yeah, I believe, eight and a half because it's been great. I've enjoyed every minute of it. A chance to get some experience in a field that I am excited about. I went to uni and studied Marketing. And I got that role at People and their Brilliance. So yeah, I'm really liked satisfied with just having this opportunity. Meeting a great boss - learning a lot from you, meeting some great people that I would class as my friends outside of work, I'll still see them, speak with them. It's been a great experience.
Darius Norell
That's lovely to hear. So you studied marketing, you've had an opportunity to use that apply that over the six months in a related area of work? Yeah. You've been surrounded by nice people. You've kind of got some good relationships, connections, which are going to last beyond. And you 've had an amazing boss. Haha Yes. So that all sounds wonderful. And it also sounds nice. That's not a criticism. I'm wondering about when you look at the Nana of six months ago, like when we first met - do you remember coming into the office? And the Nana of now. What do you see as the difference?
Nana Appiah
Yeah, there's a couple actually, definitely, I think my confidence has grown. Because that was something I remember we discussed about it wasn't my strongest point. But I feel a bit more confident in just speaking with new people speaking in places where I don't feel comfortable in. Even now, I feel good. I don't feel any nerves. Usually, if this was six months ago, I'd probably be nervous, a bit wary. Do I really want to do this? But I feel good doing this. Yeah so definitely my confidence has increased.
Darius Norell
So let's just pause on that one, because it's amazing. Yeah. And rings true from my experience of you. I can imagine you saying no to this. In very polite way, because you're very polite and respectful, I can imagine you saying, Oh, actually, I'd rather not. Or do I have to? Which obviously, you don't have to, there's an invitation to come on. Yeah. So the fact that you've taken the invitation, and as you say, you're feeling at ease doing it. I think is fantastic. Yeah. I'm really happy to hear that. And see that. And what does it you know, let's talk about what that enables for you that feeling of confidence. How is that helpful or useful for you?
Nana Appiah
Just general life, it's just a different approach to life. And also looking for work now. So I just have a different mindset and approach in looking for jobs. Before I would have been, Oh, can I do this? When I'm looking at job descriptions. Sometimes I'm doubting myself, I can't do that, or I don't feel I have enough skills for this type of role. But now it's just, I'm just, if it's there, I'm just gonna go for it because I have that experience. And I just feel I'm good enough to do so, why not?
Darius Norell
Fantastic! That sounds lovely and helpful. Yeah. Great. Sorry, and I interrupted your flow. So confidence, that was one of the things what else?
Nana Appiah
Confidence and just stepping out of my comfort zone. So doing stuff that was not in my role, for example, calling candidates and I was doing some of the recruitment stuff, or training this stuff, sorry, at one point and which I also was a bit worried about but I did manage to get some of it done. So it was just, it was something new, but I enjoyed it because it wasn't something I'm used to but I managed to do it in the end. So I was proud of myself just doing something different.
Darius Norell
Yeah, so picking up the phone. Calling people, and you were speaking to employers and candidates I think, right? And they weren't necessarily expecting your call. I think a lot of people have kind of - maybe we will use the word fear around it either not sure or is this something I want to do? How's it gonna go? And I don't know if it's a generational thing. I mean, I have been I'm learning, I want to say this the right way, but people don't seem to spend much time talking to each other on the phone and calling each other up anymore. Right there's a lot of chat maybe there's FaceTime or I don't know what there is, but there's kind of a WhatsApp or whatever there is, but actually making a phone call to someone seems a little bit alien.
Darius Norell
I mean everyone's different but for me, I don't know it's, I just find that weird talking to someone random that they're not expecting my call and they're just hearing from you in this - I dunno, maybe it's just me but I just find it weird sometimes.
Darius Norell
Yeah? Alex anything you could shed light on?
Alexandra Purpura
I think with the phone call aspect like if it's a stranger it feels very intrusive, even with friends, you know, it's like I always text them beforehand oh do you want to call? You have to like set it up, but then I've had like a few people I'm very close with so just phoned me whenever, like I'll be there to pick up and if I'm not I'll just message back so I think it's that uncertainty a little bit.
Darius Norell
Yeah, so maybe it is a bit intrusive. I've grown up at a time before internet, that's not quite true there was internet but we weren't using it in the same way we didn't have WhatsApp and chat and all that kind of stuff so it was like okay if you want to reach somebody you needed to pick up the phone and call them, or send them a letter. We were just using email when I was starting working but it wasn't normal. So that's my default, is okay, let's pick up the phone and have a conversation. So again, just want to acknowledge well done for doing it. And going out of your comfort zone. This is a great skill and quality to have, to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Right? Otherwise our life shrinks. Because oh, I haven't done that for a while. Okay, I won't do that, you know. Anything we haven't done for a bit seems uncomfortable. Yeah, that's just how our brains work. And we're recording this in October 2021. We've had the experience of the pandemic and being restricted our movements, we forgot how to do a lot of things that we would normally do. And suddenly they seem scary. Whereas before, it's like we did that all the time. And we have to relearn or push ourselves to refine our kind of areas of growth and learning, so I think it's a really important quality of, Am I willing able to go towards something that I'm initially feeling uncomfortable with? And the way that can expand your life? And what's available to you, if I'm willing to go with that, versus, no, if it feels uncomfortable even for a little bit, then it's a no. I think that only leads to life getting smaller. Does that seem to make sense? So I'm curious about where else could you use that in your life right now? That quality that you've developed of going towards what's uncomfortable?
Nana Appiah
I don't know if I've probably already touched on it, in like the workplace - I think just meeting new people, sometimes for me can be a bit, not as much now but, I'm usually a bit timid myself. As the six months passed by, I've kind of like opened up a bit more, and being myself a lot more and just opening up to people. So I think yeah, definitely in that aspect it will help as well, just building new connections and building a network as well.
Darius Norell
Yeah. So in the neuroscience, it's going to be part of my training, we often talk about this idea of moving from overwhelming threat, or challenge, to manageable threat. That sounds like what you're talking about, like, Okay, before, it was overwhelming. Oh my gosh, I don't know what to do in this situation. And now it's oh yeah, I noticed a little bit of timidity, and I'm able to go towards it, or be with it and still do what I want to do. So meeting new people, what else because these are great markers for our brain to know. Yeah, you know what, I'm doing lots of things which are outside of my comfort zone. I'm thinking of some things you're doing already, that are in that category. So where else are you using this quality of going towards what's uncomfortable? Maybe it doesn't even seem uncomfortable now because it's like, oh, I can just do that. Something you already mentioned that for me would be in that category. But maybe it's not for you. Can I share what I'm thinking? Because you said you're applying for jobs? Yeah. I don't know if that is going outside of your comfort zone, but I could imagine it might be? Or it doesn't feel like that anymore?
Nana Appiah
Not as much now because of just a different approach I have to getting job. So it's not like it was before. So I'd say it's not really uncomfortable anymore.
Darius Norell
And look at that. "That's easy for me now, this is who I am." Great! That's lovely to hear. So you've grown in confidence. And maybe one of the causal factors for that has been going outside of your comfort zone. Because that builds confidence - Oh, I could do that. I didn't know I could do that. We get a sense of growth, progression. We do it again and again, repetition builds confidence. Yeah. What else do you see as different from six months ago?
Nana Appiah
I'd say my experience in marketing. See, that's definitely changed because obviously studying in university, I'm only doing the theory and actually doing the practice we're actually doing it is, I'd say it's very different to learning it. Yeah. Because the stuff I'm doing now, and the stuff I was learning in university, there's a lot of differences. I think university is quite old fashioned. A lot of the modules I studied were quite old. It wasn't really what I'm doing now. So, the creative side, I enjoyed a lot of the creative sides of marketing, putting stuff on social media or creating posts. I didn't really learn about that in university. Yeah, so I'd say, definitely my skill set in marketing has definitely increased in definitely social media. I'd say that's also gone better from six months ago.
Darius Norell
So it sounds like you may have even discovered, I don't know if this is true, but I saw the results of it. You may have discovered a creative side of yourself that you didn't know was there. I don't know.
Nana Appiah
Definitely, because I wouldn't say I'm a creative person at all. But what I've managed to produce at People and their Brilliance I'm definitely proud of myself, because I did not have that in me.
Darius Norell
There you go. That's amazing. Yeah. And it was good, I mean, you know, I've employed full time professional designers. I'm amazed to hear that honestly, given what you created. Yeah. It was really good. And it sounds like you enjoyed it?
Nana Appiah
Yeah, definitely. It was fun. Yeah.
Darius Norell
How was it to hear me compliment you?
Nana Appiah
Yeah it's good. It's like, I'm proud of myself because I know I've accomplished something. Yeah nah it's good.
Darius Norell
Yeah, fantastic. What else would be good to talk about or useful for you to kind of reflect on your experience?
Nana Appiah
I'd say the training. Because I did learn quite a bit from the training. So I'd say maybe I can touch base on that, and how that helped me as well.
Darius Norell
Yeah. So again, just for context, we call it Radical Employability Training. That was at regular intervals through the placement, what did you get from that?
Nana Appiah
Just like the approach, it helps me just understand myself a bit more. Just my approach to work. And basically, everything in life in general is a different approach. So I remember, one thing I took from the start of the radical employability was about brilliance, and just thinking about my values, what can I bring? Rather than what is on the job description? What can I actually bring to the job I'm applying to? So I learned a lot from that. Definitely.
Darius Norell
So again, for contextualising we talk about this mindset of contribution. So sort of what can I get from this job? What can I give you? Can I contribute? And it's a massive shift, I think for most people. And as you heard me talk about in the training, I'm claiming that most of us most of the time are coming with this mindset of what can I get from this person, this situation, this relationship, this organisation or whatever, and we're in a kind of consumer mode of what can I get? And our brains might be thinking, well, of course, why else would I be in this relationship, if I'm not going to get something from it? I might even think about that in a romantic partner, like why would I be in this relationship if I'm not gonna get something? That's a very different frame to come with, okay, I'm in a relationship so that I can make a contribution. What is there to contribute? And if I'm in a relationship with an employer in a job, what can I contribute? What's the value that I can add, which I really hear you talking about and saying, okay, yeah, that was almost a light bulb moment for you of, Oh, yeah, that's a totally different frame to come from. Yeah. And when I asked people, you know, why do you want a job? 99% of what people say is about them. I want to get this, I want to learn that, I want to be in this location - it's all about what they're going to get out of it. And it's really rare to have two people - I'm not saying it's not there, but people don't talk about - I want to make this contribution. And working for this company is going to be a great way for me to be able to make that contribution in the world. And not only just make the contribution, but be able to grow my contribution over time, increase my capacity to make that contribution, which is a very different way thinking about it. And I'm claiming is not just different. It makes the whole process of getting a job much simpler. It's much clearer, is this the right place for me or not? You stand out much more, and you're gonna have a better experience is what I'm claiming. So yeah, thank you for mentioning that what else?
Nana Appiah
From the training, also, one that definitely stuck with me was the one about appreciation or gratitude from someone else, I think that one really stuck with me because it helped me appreciate what other people have done for me as well. So like the past six months looking for a job who was there to help me and push me to eventually find something. So that did definitely stick with me.
Darius Norell
And so again, for people that didn't go through that experience, this was if I'm recalling the practice of really recognising and appreciating the people that are around you, who have been an incredible support. And freely given themselves, through the ups and downs, to be there for you, to believe in you, support you in whatever ways that are helpful. And so the process was really bringing them to mind and reflecting and acknowledging and letting them know, because they know that they've been of great support to me, well do they? Have you told them? Well I haven't told them, but they know. Okay, so what's it like to tell them? And it can be a conversation that we don't normally have. And yet, it can be one of the most powerful exchanges that we might have with that person as a way of really deepening our relationship and taking a moment for ourselves to acknowledge it. And for them to know. And it's a beautiful thing, and I think it feels nice to be able to give that feedback.
Nana Appiah
Yeah, those are the main things that really stuck with me and helped me.
Darius Norell
Can I ask you a different kind of question? Anything that you would have hoped to have got from the training or the experience that you didn't get? Or that you'd like to ask me about. There may not be and just want to create that opportunity in case.
Nana Appiah
No, I learned a lot from the training so I don't think there's anything that I didn't get from it.
Darius Norell
But you gave me an eight and a half. Or you experienced an eight and a half. So what would have made it a 10?
Nana Appiah
That actually was on my part. I actually thought I could have done a lot more. Okay, so it would have been a 10 if I did that. I feel I know I did a good job. But I know I could have done a lot more. I didn't push myself enough. But I think towards the, towards the summer and now I feel I've pushed myself a lot more. So that's why I'm saying it wasn't a 10, because at the start, I was just here, just kind of just doing stuff. I wasn't really saying I want to get this done by this day.
Darius Norell
Great, you could see there was, I just use the word lack of focus, you haven't used that word but it was about going through the motions a little bit in the beginning. Yeah. And you found your groove and a way to get more focus, get deliverables done, raise your performance, and get to a standard that you're really happy with? I call that a success. Because a different version is that I put in place a structure, which meant that you weren't able to be, you know, hey, Nana I need this from you this week, you know, you came in already delivering at that level. And then you never got to discover it for yourself of Hey, okay, that's not that's not coming, what do I need to do to get myself performing at the level I want to? Maybe need to? That's a great learning. So let's unpack that? What was the key to that shift?
Nana Appiah
I think the key was, there was one meeting we had, I think with you, and it was just about it, we started putting stuff on Airtable. And we started setting up schedules, which made sense because at random, it just doesn't make sense. So if you have a schedule, and things to follow, it makes more sense. And also doing a lot of research on what we're doing and how to do it at the best of our abilities. So posting on social media, when is the best time to post on there.
Darius Norell
Got it. So it sounds like once you had even the sniff of oh, we could put a framework in place here. Then seems like a missing piece of the puzzle of okay, great, now we know what we're doing and how frequently, now we can start to measure ourselves of how do we do it better. Yeah, so that sounds like that was a pivotal moment.
Nana Appiah
Yeah, definitely. And then also having the relationship with the recruitment team also helped us a lot because building a relationship there. And also just putting some different content and actually getting jobs outo onto social media platforms where people can see it and apply to jobs. That shift as well also helped us a lot.
Darius Norell
Great. You talked powerfully and you became quite alive talking about your designing and applying yourself. I'm kind of curious now, you're currently looking for roles? Are you able to keep that skill set alive? Is there anything that you're doing that enables you to keep your hand in as it were?
Nana Appiah
I wouldn't say there's anything I'm doing. It's more, it's on my CV at the moment. So yeah, there's just proof that I've got different pictures of designs that I've done. So that's some proof that I've got that done. I wouldn't say there's really anything I'm doing to be honest right now to keep that alive.
Darius Norell
So I know, you're coming to the end of your placement. So you're about to enter a period of oh, you might have some spare time. Yeah. And so I'd love to see the idea for you of Oh, what if once a week, I just created my own thing? For something I feel passionate about. So I don't know. I don't know things that you're interested in. This week is Mental Health Awareness Week, I'm gonna create a, you know, it's just to keep your practice up. And then if you're going for a job, people say, What are you doing? It's like, oh, well, here's an example of something recently I created. Alright, and you've got artistic licence to create whatever you want to create. That keeps you in the game of and in the rhythm of producing and creating. What do you think about that?
Nana Appiah
Yeah, that's definitely something I should be doing to be fair.
Darius Norell
So let's let go of should, because if your shoulding you're coulding. Because you could. How does that sound? Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. Is that's something you'd like to do?
Nana Appiah
Yeah. Because it makes sense. It's just something there to be doing and also keeping that skill set alive.
Darius Norell
So what platform would you be publishing that on?
Nana Appiah
Probably on social media platforms.
Darius Norell
Which one? I don't know what accounts you've got.
Nana Appiah
I'm not really, like I use social media, but I'm not sociable if that makes sense. I'm looking through. But I could pull it up on my Instagram or my Twitter.
Darius Norell
Great, so then someone can see it right? That's what I'm thinking. Lovely. And how frequently could you imagine doing that?
Nana Appiah
Well, I don't want to post too frequently, because it's just like, sometimes it gets unbearable. It's too much. But I could do once every other week. Because that makes sense. It's just then and it's not too much.
Darius Norell
How does that feel? Yeah. Anything else you want to ask me now? This is the last kind of little bit of a checkout conversation really. Anything you want to ask me?
Nana Appiah
Yeah, just like how do you feel I've done, what's your review on me? How have I done?
Darius Norell
Yeah, lovely question. That's kind of where I was going. Actually I'm gonna go the reverse way, which is, I'd love you to give me some feedback as well. So that's what's coming. I think you've done really well. And the reason I say that is because there wasn't a lot of structure in place, you were coming into a new role that we created for the kickstart scheme. There was no one above you giving you clear direction and deliverables on a regular basis, right, there's very high level, okay, look, can you help with this? And so as you described, you had to find your way and find your rhythm and kind of go, Okay, well, how do I do a good job here? And it did take a little bit to get started and get at a level of performance, like okay, this is going well. And I think, you know, for me, part of that journey is discovering, okay, well how do I manage myself? How do I figure out what needs doing what needs prioritising or what good looks like. And so those skill sets that you've developed, I'm really happy to see. And I'm excited to see your confidence growing and I'm, you know, things we touched on the creative side. I really encourage you to develop because I think, you know, there's something there, that's powerful for you to bring in some way, shape or form.
Darius Norell
I think given the conditions, I think you've done really well. I think, you know, I would like to have given you some more direction than I was able to give you or did give you through the experience. But that's on me, not you. And I think that might have even, you know, maybe created the opportunity sooner for you to get in the groove or even just enabled the performance to go up even another level because there was more clarity and more measurable and deliverables that were... So Yeah, that was clearer. So I would put that on me. So I think you've used the opportunity well, to go from where you were, to go several steps forward. So I think, as you said, you can be proud of yourself. And I'm sure that growth and confidence is a big one for me. You came in, you know, I'm sure you remember, like, even when we first met on zoom as I don't have my camera on. I'm not a camera on person. Right. And you persisted with that, which is fine. But that's a big step from where we are now. Yeah. Which is being on camera. And recording this specially you know, you're having, you know, that's huge. And not that we will always be on camera but there's that confidence that's come inside you. And the thing which stood out for me, I guess maybe this would be a piece of feedback. And the reason I hired you, is not because of the skill set that you had, right, or because you've done a marketing degree. What I felt was the hunger you had to work, like I want to be working. I don't want to be stuck at home. Yeah. And even though there were other things that I saw missing, like that accounted for a lot for me of you know, this person wants a break, would really value a break as in an opportunity. I'm gonna give him one. And that's what stood out for me. And so I'm happy that you've made the most of it. Or made a lot of it. Yeah. How was that?
Nana Appiah
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. Because it helped me a lot. Definitely. Really appreciate that.
Darius Norell
So now's a chance for you to give me some feedback. And I know it's not easy. It's sometimes not easy to give feedback. And we're not used to doing it. And maybe because I say I used to be your boss, because we're coming to the end of this last last day. Contract's finishing. What can I improve? Maybe start with a slightly easier one. But what did you like about, what would be good to know about? What would be good for me to know about, me as a leader, for me to keep doing this because this is great?
Nana Appiah
Just how you always like want clarity. So as always, I want this done, because sometimes this stuff is not really clear. And I respect how you want it to be, this is how I want it done, like this. There's no running around the bush, just direct, straight. This is how I want it, I like that a lot. And then just as a leader, just how you push everyone, you motivate everyone to just get things done. And yeah as a team our Monday meetings, helps a lot. It's just, it's a chance to just get together and speak about what we're doing. And what we're going to do so definitely, as a leader, I definitely respect the way you just carry the team and get us going.
Darius Norell
Thank you. And what about where do you see I could improve or develop? This would be a great gift for me.
Nana Appiah
I think, you've touched on it already. It's just at the start. It was just there wasn't really a direction. So I felt I didn't really know you that much at the start. So yeah, I think that's the only thing was just maybe we could have just had a bit more clarity and spoke about what we're doing a bit more. But that was at the start. Yeah, I'd say that's the only thing is just trying to build that relationship of what we're doing and knowing. Yeah, so just that.
Darius Norell
Yeah, I think that's totally fair and accurate. Yeah, no question. I think you were or I left you if I want to take the responsibility for it in the deep end. And you know, it's fine to be at the deep end, but it's kind of it was a little bit I think maybe it was to say too much. But yeah, certainly I would have wanted to. And I think it would have been beneficial to have had a little bit more support in those early. Yeah, those early weeks. And now just reflecting there was a, there was a huge amount that was on my plate at the times. Yes. Fair enough. In the nicest possible way, you fell off the side of it. I mean, not completely giving you the level of care and attention I might have liked to. Anything else you want to tell me?
Nana Appiah
That's basically i. All I can do is just thank you for giving me the opportunity to just be in something that I have a drive for, I have a passion, what I'm interested in. And yeah, that's just all I can do is just show my appreciation.
Darius Norell
I'm very happy. Thank you. Yeah. Alex, anything you want to feed back to me? Either from these conversations, or more generally? I'm ready and listening?
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah, just like, I think I've learned over the last couple weeks, months or so like just that you are just quite an approachable person, and I can come to you and all of us, like, will come to you and ask fo your support. And also, like, you're not afraid, I think, to question us so that we can then question what are we actually doing? Like when we bring issues to you and stuff? So I think that's so much better than just being like, right, you do this? Because you're actually learning the thought process of how to like, work out what is the better choice or that like, whatever. So yeah, I really respect that. From what I've experienced at the moment.
Darius Norell
And what could I be working on or doing better on?
Alexandra Purpura
Um just being more available. Yeah, that's just, I know that's so difficult, but sometimes I'm just like, Oh, I really could ask Darius this question, and you're just not in the office. So I think that's just my, yeah. If we're going off the top of my head, yeah.
Darius Norell
Well, it's good. And it's kind of, you know, it's a double edged sword. Because me not being there forces you to think more and go, Okay, well, how do I sort this out? Yeah. So which I'm gonna say is really helpful. And there can be a time for having the conversation. And if you're saying that balance maybe feels like, oh, yeah, if we can move the dial towards a little more availability, you know, I'm happy to consider that if that's what you're feeling.
Alexandra Purpura
Yeah I think it's just day to day in the office, always in the booths. So sometimes feels hard to like, grab you and catch you down. And also, it's my own thing being like, Oh, he's busy. He's been in the phone booth all day. And yeah, he's doing work. And I feel like I can't. That's my thing.
Darius Norell
So can I say no to you? If you say Darius, can I have five minutes?
Alexandra Purpura
No, another time, or I'm busy right now. Yeah, please.
Darius Norell
And do you think from what you know of me that I would find that difficult to do? Not at all. So you can just ask, yeah. And I can say no. Hopefully, give a hey, could we, you know, is this a now thing or tomorrow or whatever it might be. At least I know then there's something that you want to talk through. Great. All right. I think we can draw things to a close there. Yeah. Thank you both. Thank you for your energy contributions, honesty, openness. You know, for me, the most important thing is that we're having real conversations. So that's what I feel like we've had this morning. And thank you for listening, watching, hope there's something that connected for you, resonated, somehow you see yourself maybe a lot, a little in some of what Nana and Alex have been talking about, and wish you well on whatever stage of the journey you're on. See you next time.
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