#19. This Is Me - Alice Reeves
“That’s just the way it is, and I can’t be something I’m not”
How joyful is your life? Alice Reeves joins the podcast to talk about audience-first marketing, as well as sharing her own journey with neurodiversity, starting her own business and owning who she really is - and how powerful that can be. It’s a wonderfully open and generous conversation, and if you’re interested in building an authentic and joyful working life for yourself - listen now.
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Alice Reeves is the Co-director and Founder of The Joyful - brand and marketing for movers, shakers, and change-makers. For everything from audience-led content marketing campaigns and SEO to community-focused social media, contact The Joyful here: https://wearethejoyful.com/contact/
The eating disorder charity mentioned in the podcast is Beat. If you need support or want to find out more, visit https://www.beateatingdisorders.org.uk/.
Interested in Alice’s story of changing careers? Check out Femi Bola’s story on the podcast here https://www.whatsyour.work/all-episodes/episode-18, and our podcast on New Beginnings here https://www.whatsyour.work/all-episodes/episode-15.
Are you feeling restless in your career? Read this article and connect with where you are in your journey https://www.whatsyour.work/blog/change-your-life-right-now.
Audio mix by Hula & Co Music.
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Intro
Darius Norell
So in this episode talking to Alice. And I think this will really resonate if you've ever felt like you didn't fit in, not sure how to find your way in the world or told like, Oh, you shouldn't do that, or you shouldn't be like this and wrestled with how to show up. And there's talk so openly, beautifully powerfully about her experience and how she's navigated that and is navigating that. I really hope you enjoy this episode.
Conversation
Darius Norell
Okay, Alice, so thank you so much for joining this episode of What's your work great to have you on the show.
Alice Reeves
Thanks very much.
Darius Norell
As you know, the title is, What's Your Work? So we're going to be talking about what you see as your work in the world, talking about maybe what you see as your work on yourself exploring that, see where that goes. And I've sort of started by getting into the habit of introducing people by the experience I have of them. And so some people I know well, some people less well. So we've met sort of once face to face in a work context, I've seen you come talk in other contexts, so. And I would say like for people, how many I would say what a strong energy is that? Is that fair?
Alice Reeves
That has been said, yes!
Darius Norell
I'm going to add to that, because that's quite ambiguous, but it's a lovely energy. At least I experienced it that way. It's really a sort of positive. A brilliant, if I can use that word. At least for me, it comes up with a sense of positivity, possibility. And energy, which I think is Yeah, I think it's sorely needed. We'd love to have more of in the world. So that's my first go at describing my experience of you.
Alice Reeves
Oh, that's lovely. Thank you. I think it's yeah, it's really interesting, because I'm sure we'll, we'll come on to this. But I, you know, I'm the kind of person where a lot of my life, I've been told that I'm, you know, too much too loud, too intense, too. too energetic, you know, like, calm down, quiet like that. And I think a huge part of like, my journey professionally and personally, has been around how I harness my energy in a way that, you know, isn't, you know, that is helpful. And that is positive, because I think that for people like me, who are very, very strong extroverts, it can start, you know, it's very evident, whatever emotional state you're in. And, you know, I just kind of like, if I'm angry, it's like power, I project that into the room. If I'm positive, it's like power, I project that into the room. And I'm aware that my energy is very strong. And I think a big part of my journey has been awareness of how strong that energy is, and how to manage it.
Darius Norell
Yeah, so as a part, it's a power if we want to put it that way. And it's got a shadow side, there's also a side that maybe can be impactful in a way that maybe you don't want or not, not intending or don't realize, how would you I mean, for people listening, what, how would you describe what your work is at a at a sort of, like transactional level, but yeah, what would be good for people to know about the world of work that you're in? And then we can talk more about maybe at a deeper level?
Alice Reeves
Yes, absolutely. So I have worked in one capacity or another in in marketing for my my entire career since I left university. And that was never the intention. The intention was to be a journalist, which was my kind of dream through my teens, but it's so much work experience. And then I finished my journalism qualification right in the middle of the 2009 recession. And that meant that, you know, there were no jobs like local papers were closing, they were cutting back, they were streamlining there was no capacity for paid work, people didn't want to take on interns. So I really quickly had to look at where my skills could be kind of shifted. And you know, in terms of communication, messages writing, it was marketing that I ended up going into in both events and then product and service marketing. And so that has that has been my work on a on a transactional level. And then five years ago, I co founded The Joyful with my business partner Sophie Turton. After both of us were working in marketing agencies, and just just spotting the agency model just didn't, didn't really bring us any joy, either of us working within, you know, it was very much like, you know, ROI, you know, how do you know, Oh, fine, you're doing that, but like, how much money is it going to make me and, you know, that wasn't the type of marketing I really enjoyed, like I loved doing really creative, really impactful, purposeful campaigns. And it kind of felt like in the agency world, those opportunities came round, very, very rarely. And so when I left my job, it I said to my, I said to my manager like that, I'm leaving, because there's no joy in anything I do anymore. And then that turned into the joyful after meeting. So they and finding we weren't, we were aligned. So. So the joyful we are, we are a brand and digital marketing agency. But the distinction for us is that we work with businesses who are really purpose driven. And by that we mean they are, they're not only looking to sell a product or service, but they are looking through, you know, to use the power of their platform to make real change in the world, in an industry to communities. So, you know, that could be through CSR, through charitable giving, it could be through, you know, using their marketing budget to actually run campaigns on behalf of a community or cause that's associated with their product. So that it's not just around, how do we use our marketing? Or how do we use social media or email or content to, to find more customers? It's around how do we use our power and our platform, and our and our profit as a brand, to affect real change to something that we really care about, so that our clients and our customers know that in working with us, they are directly supporting these values, these causes, and this change that they also care really passionately about. And that for us is what brings us joy when it comes to marketing, it's about seeing the impact. Beyond you know, the business growth and the metrics, it's about seeing the impact on customers, on communities who are receiving those messages, or being part of of shaping them.
Darius Norell
So I can feel your energy, as you're talking about it. Now, for what so if a business is listening, Alice, that sounds lovely, like we you know, we'd like to do that too. And then the kind of there's a but coming in there question, which is, but we need to focus on the core business first, like we need to make the money first, like, will you help us do that? And then, like, how do you see the connection between those two? And I'm making an artificial distinction all sorts of deliberately, but what yeah, how do you what do you say to that?
Alice Reeves
So in terms of those conversations, it's always around, if you are just focusing on selling your product on selling your service, then there is absolutely nothing in your messaging that is going to stick, distinguish you from any other of your direct competitors out there, because they're all offering the same services with the same functions with the same benefits. And so what really matters is thinking audience first in terms of what is the impact that I want to have on my direct audience before you start thinking about the wider communities? So it's thinking in terms of okay, what is when I deliver this product or service when we deliver this product or service in our unique, special, distinct, patented trademark whatever way? What is the impact on our audience? Therefore, how does the content that we create around our products or service demonstrate the importance of these values of our approach of our way of doing things? And, you know, instead of writing a blog post around like, here is, you know, here's how to use our service, or here's five brilliant things about our product. It's thinking okay, with my content, how can I add value to my audience? In terms of can I interview someone who is like an expert in this area? Who can give them really valuable advice? Can we demonstrate our expertise by doing a you know, like a thought leadership post on an issue within our industry with a really powerful call, you know, call to action for other people to join us in in impacting a change, you know, how do we can we give our customers a platform? So you know, I've got a client where I've, you know, worked with them on a offer for many, many years. And the entire marketing strategy that we created for them was, you know, the nub of it was we have this really nice group of customers. And you know, we are actually really trying to do do good by them in terms of our product, because, you know, it is the best value you can get on the market. But you know, they're not going to believe that, but at the root of that, at the root of wanting to make money by providing the best value, product, at the root of it is really, really wanting to be able to help our customers to do their job better. So then why don't we use our marketing to help our customers do their job better, which is the same function as the product. But instead, we're giving them a platform, we're allowing them to explore through our blog, we're giving them a space to share knowledge and form a community. And you know, that, that we set that blog up five years ago, and this year, it's a past a quarter of a million views. Because, you know, then that's gone up by like, 50,000 views every single year, because we're building a community. And as a result, their profits and their growth has followed the same trajectory. But we haven't even been focusing on that with their marketing. So it's, it's all interconnected. And it's all around, you know, I am a, I am a business, I'm a brand who understands my audience understands their challenges. And you know, want to put my money where my mouth is, in terms of, yeah, I'm creating a product that helps, but I'm going to also do all this other stuff that helps them. And that's what we call marketing. Whereas, you know, that it's like a product in itself that that helps building helps in building out that brand. Into something people want to do business with want to be associated with.
Darius Norell
Got it. Yeah, powerful description, really makes sense. So sort of aligned with that, this is not too much of a kind of force. So thinking about my audience listening to you, right, there's these inflection moments in people's lives. And one is leaving a job, right, which a lot of people find really hard. Even when it's clear, like, Hey, this is not necessarily the right place for me to step out of that can be hard. Obviously, a lot of fear of the unknown what's gonna happen? Am I gonna get another job? Is that the right decision? I will rule? So sounded like you left that job. hadn't met your business partner at that time? So can you talk us through a little bit more that that? Yeah, what? How did how did you come to actually leave?
Alice Reeves
I think for me, it was a case of I, you know, I was never really a good fit for that organization. And ever since I started there, I'd been every day, like waking up and going into work and forcing myself to be someone I wasn't to fit in with the company culture. Because it felt that every time I you know, let my real personality show. I was told I was too much. It wasn't appropriate. I shouldn't do it like that. I should. So it felt like every day was a battle. And, and I think so. So one factor was this increasing desire to be like, Look, I can see so clearly another way of doing this. And everyone every day is telling me that I'm wrong. But I want to see if I am right. And I want to see if there is another way that is different to what all these people are telling me. So there was that that desire that was was building. And I think you know, I had been in a really unique position in that one of my first ever Jobs was as the events coordinator for the Brighton and Hove Chamber of Commerce. And before that, it was Employer Liaison for the career center or with with Sussex you need to help program events for students. So it's very, very early in my career. You know, I was this like ball of energy, like 20 something, just making all of these connections, getting to know so many entrepreneurs within the city, that I built up these connections and I knew so many people that were like five years ahead of me 10 years ahead of me even 20 years ahead of me in terms of the business journey that I knew I wanted to follow. So I had some incredible role models. And I felt that when I you know when I did quit my job and step into my own business, which I always sort of said I wanted to do from from the time I was working for the chamber, I knew I would have a support network around me that so I think you know that that was really important to me and I knew I wasn't doing it on my own. So, you know, all of this was building in terms of dissatisfaction at work. And, and then it just, it reached a point where I wasn't even enjoying the work I was doing it was it was so far removed in terms of being like, strategic and advisory. And, you know, we're talking like massive budgets, but impacting a tiny, tiny parts of massive corporations. And I just was like, you know, what, I, I miss the days when I was working directly with founders, you know, really creative, passionate founders, who, you know, we would really kind of jump in on this energy and, and really be up for doing things creatively and differently. So. So I quit my job, and I quit probably about six months after I should have done. But I think the the biggest the biggest thing for me wasn't really around like fear of, I don't think I can do it, because I think I always did think I could do it. I think it was around, like, what if I quit with all of this, like confidence, you know, having given it all of this, like, Yeah, I'm gonna do it. And, and I know, and I fall flat on my face, and people are gonna judge me from walking away from, you know, like, I always was, like, you know, once I kind of started on that, like, career ladder, I was like, I'm gonna have director in my job title by the time I'm 30. And I'm going to be doing this isn't that and then I got it. I got it all when I was 29. And I was just like, I am bloody miserable. And so there was a real like, ego thing, there was a real pride thing for me to get around in terms of this is what I said I wanted. And I've got what I said I want. And now I'm just going to walk away from it, like less than six months after I got it. And you know, people are gonna think that I'm mad. And, you know, then there's also like, Oh, I'm coming up for 30. And I've got like, no savings. And I've, you know, and, and like, what is this the wrong time? And then it was, you know, well, if you don't do it now, like, when are you going to do it like that, the longer you carry on, the harder it's going to be? So I just on my 30th birthday, I just handed my notice. And I didn't even know I was gonna do it. When I walked into work, just after about an hour. I was like, it's like a switch in my brain was just like, you are a 30 year old woman. And every day you're miserable. Like, come on, like you can do better than this. And, and so I did, and I didn't have any thought of what I was going to do. And then so yeah, woke up on the first of January 2017. No business, no employment, just like, well, what are we doing now? Five and a half years later, here we are.
Darius Norell
Hmm, amazing. Thank you for sharing that. And so I'm wondering, what did you do? Because this because it is, you know, I've been through that exact not well, maybe I had actually kind of the opposite experience in a bizarre way, which was I was in a job that was so amazing. And I was treated so well. And it was was just an incredible opportunity. And it was a lovely lovely company. And I all that I know it's gonna sound ridiculous, but it was panicked because I reached more or less the top of where I could get to within this with this was a relatively small company. And it was an amazing position but I was like, Oh my gosh, if I'm doing you know, if I stay at this job, I'm not you know, my life, you know, my life's gonna be I couldn't see myself doing it for this life. It's like once in 10 years I wouldn't you know, and so it's almost kind of I've got to leave now before I get too comfortable in this because I could have stayed in it right it would have been lovely. But it wasn't it wasn't the work for me for the rest of my life. And so I but I also left to start my own business and there was a moment of ours is going to be great I'm going to do this and I was going to a business unlike you that I knew nothing about right so I was starting from total scratch so you sounds like you have some connections or sense of network and and and some expertise and skill in what you're doing. I had none right it was just like oh, I have a vision for what I wanted to do, but no experience or expertise and I'd love to hear how it was for you but I for me it was a it was a kind of weird experience of oh I can't possibly fail to this is never gonna work right and we just sort of bounced between those two for the first six months of like, I can't believe why everyone thinks this is difficult like this is easy or not the easiest straw but like I'm gonna do this there is no doubt in my mind to Yeah, I probably should just stop now. There's just no but what was I even thinking like, there's no way this is possible. So how Yeah, so what we experienced in January 2017. Like, oh, what do I do now?
Alice Reeves
So I really resonate with what you're saying. And I think probably for like the first three years of business, it was that like, what are we doing? Oh, my God, this is amazing. What are we doing? And I think that that's really normal. I think when you start a new business, you really got to work to get to a point where you're at a level of expertise, you're at a level of stability, to be able to relax into it. And I think for me, that probably did take about three or four years. And it's only probably really within the last like, you know, a year or so that I've felt like, oh, yeah, okay, I know what we're doing. But even within that, there's still those moments. And so yeah, woke up first of January 2017. And I actually gave a talk about this, I think back in 2017, in the summer, and it kind of coincided with my decision to take part in this challenge that was run every day in January, which was, you know, you, you commit that, that's all you're gonna do, you're just gonna get your running shoes on, and you're going to run, whether it's five minutes, or like two hours, you're just going to run. So every day in January, I made sure that I set that time and I put my running shoes on and I went out and I run and I tracked all of my runs. And if you'd have said to me at the start of January, I want you to run two marathons this month, I'd have been like, oh, no, what do you mean run two marathons this month, you're mad. But when I added up all of my mileage, at the end of January, I had run the equivalent of two marathons. And so then that became my philosophy, after literally a month of pretty much like panicking, that became my philosophy of like, well, at the start of January, all I could see was like doing 20 minutes, half an hour, an hour of exercise a day. But when I added it all up, it was actually an amazing achievement. So I just followed that. And I was like, You know what, in a kind of metaphorical sense, every day, I'm just gonna get up and put one foot in front of the other and take the action that I feel like I need to take to make this business a success. And you know, that was emailing all of my old contacts, emailing all of my old like bosses, I still had relationships with old clients that I developed really good relationships within, you know, saying I'm freelance, do you have any work? Do you know anyone that has any work? Can you put me in touch with people, and, and, you know, I've got like a buffer of like, three months of money of like, well, if I don't get any work for three months, then I've got this buffer. And in just making myself wake up and take a set of actions every day, without worrying about what the outcome was gonna be. I never, ever dipped that savings pot ever. And within three or four months, I had so much work, I was having to outsource it to people. Within six months, I'd met Sophie, and said, Look, if like, literally, if you came on board, now we have enough work to sustain us with you bringing in the freelance clients that you've got, we've got a business already. And so that's what we did. And we and we just every day, it's just been putting one foot in front of the other and like yes, navigating all of those feelings of like, I can't do this, we're mad. Why are we doing this, you know, this is amazing. I love this client, I hate this client. I love this work. I hate this work that that oscillation to you know, first of all settle ourselves into like running a business because I She'd never been fully freelance. I'd been freelance for six months. And then in the, in the midst of that weed suddenly decided to set up a limited company, which is a whole different other set of rules and challenges and just stuff you've got to be aware of that for me that's always been in my head of like, just put one foot in front of the other, like, even if you're like crying and like, while you're doing it, like you know, just take the action and trust. And, and that's really hard because there have been some really dark times like I really struggle with my mental health a lot. And I got a diagnosis of ADHD about six months ago, which has been overlooked my whole life. And it's an explanation of why I struggle with so much of the day to day stuff. But I've always like just got on with it. And you know, probably to my detriment sometimes. You know, I'll admit I'm not saying that was the best thing for my mental health. I'm not saying it was the best way way to go about it, but it is what I did.
Darius Norell
Yeah. And there's a power in it, which I think is what you're talking about around the discipline, the continuity. The I think I think for me at least listening the the kind of power of, in a way how I feel about this doesn't really matter what I need to do is stick to it like going for a run, like I don't really do like it. But I know that if I do, this actually is going to be helpful. And then maybe there's some wisdom and self care around Oh, like, you know, how much do I do? Or is this the right time? Or how can I do this? I don't know. But because clearly, there is a point at which that, that if we're forcing ourselves, beyond a certain point, it can become damaging, and begin to the bad habits and bad places. And so yeah, so just feeling into how do I build a really good routine that I can stick to? I remember one of the earliest pieces of advice I got this was I think this was when I was at university, I was trying to set something up. And the person said, Oh, I know this guy, he's in a job. And he started this whole thing. And he just His thing was, I'm going to do three things every day, on this new project, like just three things, whether it's one phone call, or one, you know. And that's what I said when he talked about doesn't sound like it's gonna make much difference. But that the routine of it and the discipline of just the three smallest things you can do, just day in day out. Yeah, credit, a tremendous result and exactly exactly what you're saying. And I think there's a huge power in not getting overwhelmed. As he said, I managed to monitors I could never do that, like he will just take a step was the smallest step you could take. And that continuity is, is powerful.
Alice Reeves
But it's I think it's really interesting as well, like you said about feel into it. Like, I only think in the last maybe two years, not even that I've really fully understood what that means to actually feel into my body. And I think for so much of my life, I lived so much in my head, that I never really paid attention to kind of what was going on from the neck down in terms of, you know, warning signs of like burnout. And, you know, there was a point where it actually started, kind of mid 2020, I started to get like aches and pains and you know that the doctors couldn't find any like cause for you know, and it was just a combination of, of stress. And so like starting to look into that and realizing that actually, I had been working myself way too hard. I had not been giving myself enough time I had just been so focused on like, future future future like, go go go. But I hadn't ever stopped and been like, Well, how do I actually feel? And, and I think that, that that is it's not something I like regret. I don't necessarily have regrets, but I think I wish I'd known or I wish I'd had the tools sooner to be able to listen to my body. And know that you know, things like it's not just your stomach that tells you when you're hungry. It's like your headache, it's a feeling in your mouth, it's an energy thing, like, you know, it's it's not, you know, it's an ache or pain doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong. It's just where you're holding tension and like, you've got to let go and you've got to relax. And, and I didn't I didn't have that awareness. Really, I didn't really understand when someone, a friend of mine, like first mentioned, like, Oh, I've been doing all of this embodiment work. And I was like, What's embodiment? And she's like, just like being in your body. And I was like, what? And I realized that I've been doing yoga for years. And it would do in the yoga class was literally like, Okay, I know this pose is coming next. So I need to like did it like just never bit like totally like missing the point of all of it. You know, just always, always focus forward focus forward, like never looking back to look at what I'd achieved, never appreciating being in the present moment. And all of that caught up on me and I just completely burnt out. And, you know, that wasn't good. I had a really successful business, but like, I was wrecked.
Darius Norell
I'm going to say something that is going to sound a little bit odd but in a way. Here's the phrase anyway, which is our bodies are beautiful that way and that the signals will just get stronger, right if we don't pay attention, or we're not aware of what choice does anybody have is they Oh, well, let me give you a strongest signal that there's something that needs attention and know could benefit from attention and some of us need some strong signals right for whatever reason. lack of awareness or we're so determined, or we're so focused on one thing is like, Oh, wow, you really meant it. Okay? Yeah. And then we are forced to stop or we because, like, okay, there's something here for me to pay attention to. Yeah.
Alice Reeves
And I think as well like that, that probably all ties in with like learning to harness my energy and not just go like, pow and like spend it all at once and then have nothing left to like learn to kind of rein myself in a little bit and go at like a bit of a slower pace. So that I'm not going in these like peaks and troughs of like burst of energy crash burst of energy crash, like, learning what my body's telling me about conserving my energy and just generally going a bit slower.
Darius Norell
To say a little bit more about that journey, because he was talking about for years people have sort of, this is my language, given you some kind of negative, it's too much too much turn it down, I can't cope with it, it was overwhelmingly shouldn't be like that, or kind of. So. And that's. So it's, it's beautiful and amazing to witness that, that that part of you is still there, right? It hasn't been squashed? Or kind of by Oh, I can't be you know, which I think is fantastic. So, yeah, talk about then that, that, how did you make sense of that information coming towards you, and, and adjust or not.
Alice Reeves
So for a long time, I really, really took all of that stuff, personally, you know, and it would be like, I would cry in work meetings, and I would get really angry and visibly upset at work. And I would just be told, like, you can't do that here. That's not professional, that's not appropriate, you know, you, you know, you're too loud in the office, you're distracting people, you interrupt people at meetings, you know, you're you're rude, you're disrespectful, you're an, I honestly could never see anything wrong with my behavior. And for a long, long time, I really internalized that, like, I have to be so careful. And I have to make so much effort to censor everything that comes out of my mouth. So I don't upset people, you know, if I'm feeling an emotion, I have to hide it, I have to suppress it until I get home. You know, I have to just be quiet and not talk to people. And like that, that was torturous. But that was most of my working life. Because on any occasion where I didn't do it, I felt like I got told off or reprimanded or, and, and that would then upset me so much more, because it felt like having an attack on my personality and something that I didn't feel like I had the power to change. And then you know, to an extent I then you know, around like to 2016 time I started kind of getting into, I guess the world of like self development and, you know, understanding concepts like, you know, we you can put a pause in between your thoughts and actions. And, you know, everyone goes around making up stories about people based on perceptions, which are not true. And just because someone perceives you as something doesn't mean it's true, and you have a choice about how to react, how to, you know, do that. And that was pretty revolutionary for me. And so I learned even more kind of communication tools that I could, you know, take on board to modify that. And I think that, that made me feel stronger emotionally because I did feel like I had a toolkit and I did feel like I finally had the perspective that other people go around perceiving things differently to me, which I genuinely didn't, you know, have any kind of concept of and, and so that that was the first chain so So then a couple of years after I got into the personal development stuff, I started dating someone who had had a late stage autism diagnosis. And after we'd been together for about three months, they said to me, I think you're autistic. And I was like, I'm not autistic. I've got I've got loads of autistic friends and I get on really well with with autistic people, but I don't think that's me. And they sort of said to me, Well, you respond to this in this situation. I've noticed you doing this and like listed off a load of symptoms. And so then I started looking into neurodiversity. And then a lot of my friends in their 30s and 40s started to get diagnosis for ADHD. And then at least three of them contacted me A and just said, Alice, like I read, you need to look into this. And so I did. And weirdly, my mum had like loads of my old school reports and I and I looked through them and they were all like, Alice is an incredible student, you know, she's very, very, she's very bright, she gets straight A's, she is like a gifted child, learns things very quickly absorbs new information very quickly. But oh my god, she's so disruptive in class, she's always trying to talk to people, she's, you know, really, really impulsive. She like acts before she thinks she won't sit still, she's always interrupting she, you know, or, you know, she, she likes to do things her way, she gets very frustrated when people don't do things the way she wants, all through school, or through school. And I was like, how the hell was this missed, and it's like, because academically, I was great. Like, it's like, no one really thought to dig beneath the surface. And, and, you know, so throughout my life since I was a teenager, you know, I was first diagnosed with depression, when I was like, 13, or 14, you know, I had an eating disorder, I then, you know, had issues with, you know, anxiety disorders, OCD, like symptoms throughout my 20s. And, and then again, hadn't, you know, had had a nervous breakdown in my early 20s had another one, like two years ago, and, and had to take time off, work off my own business, because I just couldn't, and then all of that led into getting an ADHD diagnosis and learning about neurodiversity, and all of this stuff, like difficulty regulating the volume of my voice, difficulty regulating the speed of my speech, inability to understand people's emotions and points of view, trouble with empathy, you know, frustration at things not being done a certain way, needing things to be done a certain way. So that, you know, zoning out and conversation for getting things, all of that stuff was like, Oh, my God, that is what has been going on. For me my whole life. All of this stuff has been undiagnosed neurodiversity diversity, where I have not had the support, understanding tools, treatment, to be able to manage it in, in a world that really isn't built for the way my brain wants to work. And, and so I, I started medication in January. And it has been absolutely life changing in terms of my mood, energy levels, sleep ability to regulate myself, like it, it has just been such a, such an important turning point for me, in terms of my mental health, and in terms of my professional capacity, and just wondering why I'm coming up against the same blockers again, and again, and again, and same issues go around in circles again, and again, and again, finally, being able to see your way through that. Because someone just happened to spot it and like and plant the seed for me. Wow.
Darius Norell
That kind of so, so much to sort of feel into and I want to ask for a thank you for sharing all of that. And it's it's powerful, and I know many people will be kind of resonating with that, that sense of somehow I'm not fitting, I'm doing my best. When I'm most me it seems to be most like I get a lot of pushback. Of course, that's upsetting and creates all sorts of internal doubt and an end and so you know, a lot of things you said kind of end up connecting together like the anxiety these this as I hear it anyway, kind of anxiety and and so and I think talking about this is really, to me, it's one of those positive developments from 20 years ago when I don't think people did talk about it, or it was kind of like, Oh, why should I talk about it all? It's not professional to talk about it, right? All that stuff, which is just rubbish, at least from my perspective is just rubbish. And I think it's, it's, it's so in the water that we're swimming in, in work, you know, I've done a lot of you have been doing a lot of work with with young people who've been unemployed this last year and the degree of diagnosed anxiety and, and and is really huge and Part of me is is sort of my take on it is there's just a lot maybe to be anxious about. Like, that is a valid response to how the world is. He's like, Yeah. And we can learn to be more resourceful. And it's not the end of the story. But like, validating. Yeah, yeah, I can understand. Like, if you haven't got a job, and you've been out of work for a year or two, and you've just been through a pandemic, and you haven't seen anyone, and you're feeling like, Yeah, I mean, being anxious would be quite a quite a normal response. And, and it doesn't have to be the end of the story. Like, as you say, there's tools and support. And so I'm curious about what to ask, I think, is, because he talked very powerfully about, like, when you were you people found it too much, but when you felt like you were being so how does it feel? Now in terms of that sense of, because you talked about, I'm gonna use the word moderating, channeling. I don't want to put words in your mouth, like I might, as I experienced you, it feels like I'm getting you. So it doesn't feel like you've lost that. And at the same time, it doesn't feel like it's unleashed kind of, untethered you so? Yeah. I'd love to hear more how you how does how do you experience it.
Alice Reeves
Yeah, and I think it, you know, similar to the, like, regulating my own energy, and not expending it all, when I have it, you know, I think it's you know, I mean that the pressure cooker analogy is so often used, but you know, if, if it's like you are keeping a seal on who you are, for so much of your life, that then you you know, you get home, and it just like comes out. And I think you know that, that was the source of I think so many problems in like past relationships where I'd had a day at work where I was just masking and then I would get home and be so tired, and emotionally dysregulated that I would just take that out on my you know, on my partner on, on friends on roommates, like whoever was in that space, I just would kind of unleash all of their, like, emotion, the minute I got in the door. And, and you know, that wasn't helpful to anyone wasn't helpful to me, because it you know, it was, it was really, really horrible experience for, for me and for whoever was on the receiving end of that. And, and so I think a big part of it is like, now that I've not got the pressure cooker on on who I am, I can be more authentically myself. And I think being able to be open now about the fact that I'm neurodiverse does modify people's expectations of me to a point where I feel more comfortable being myself because I can say, You know what, I'm I'm gonna forget your name. Like, if I don't write this down right now, I'm going to forget it or, you know, I have to be looking at this on my screen while I'm talking to you, otherwise, I'm not going to absorb any of the information that you're telling me, you know, or, you know, I have to turn my camera off because I'm too distracted. Or, you know, I will talk very, very fast and very, very loud, because I'm feeling very excited at the moment. You know, is it is is really important. And I think as well, you know, I a big thing for me is like struggle, like I do really struggle with with empathy for people. And, you know, I, you know, I that is a neurodiverse thing, I can't really explain it, but you know, often I will respond in situations in a way that people would not necessarily expect me to respond. And then that is then interpreted as being wrong and causes issues and causes fallouts and whereas now that I can kind of say, Look, I don't really know how to respond in this situation. And this is what's going on for me just feels like it feels so much easier for me to be able to, you know, to not have to be thinking on the spot. Like I have to decide what to do now I have to decide what to do now and it might be the wrong thing. It's like I can buy myself time to process and luckily, I've got an incredibly understanding partner business partner friends, you know, employees team around me who, who get it and get that I might react in a way that they don't expect to certain things. But, you know, that's, that's just the way it is. And I can't be something that I'm not.
Darius Norell
Hmm. Sounds like listening to you, you've either got or you are really literate about describing what's happening for you in a very relaxed way. And, and sort of expressing what you need. Setting the context for people and they want to get it, they want to get it, they don't they don't have to. But like, it's, it's, that makes it very easy. Yeah. And beautiful to engage with, with anyone. I mean, like, if we were all better at that, and it would be, it'd be, I think it'd be really helpful. Whatever our start point, like, the more literate we could get, like, you know, I'm tired today, like I'm sick, you know, or, or whatever it is that's going on for us, the more we can articulate and talk about that, to me, that's really the heart of great communication, great relationship. Yeah. And it makes it so easy to work with someone, or to know like, Oh, we're not a fit, like, I need this, you need that. Let's not do this, right, because it's just gonna be painful for both of us all the way along. And, or at the moment, like, that's where we're at maybe another time, and then it just becomes so easy to be to be real with each other. So I think it's, it's, I experienced, it's such a beautiful gift to be that free and, and naming of, hey, here's what's going on for me and what I need. And I think it creates the opportunity, and what's a role role modeling and creates the opportunity for other people to also express? Oh, it's okay to say that well, actually, here's what's, here's what I need in this, or Oh, my gosh, thank goodness, you said that I'm feeling the same way too. Or, or so?
Alice Reeves
And I think, yeah, huge. And I think every time I've been scared about saying something in public, you know, should I share this? Should I put this on social media, I've had, like, at least one or two messages from people just being like, Oh, my God, thank you so much for sharing that. And it's like, well, whatever anyone else thinks like, that's, that's why it matters. And you know, it is it is a lot of work. And it's a long like journey, for want of a better word, to be able to develop that vocabulary, and to be able to look at yourself and understand what's happening. Because I think my issue for so long, is that I felt so overwhelmed by my thoughts and my emotions, there was no way I was ever going to be able to articulate to someone what I needed, or ask for what I needed. Because I didn't know, all I knew is that I either felt good, or I felt bad. And I didn't know how to make myself feel good again, when I felt bad. And I didn't know why I felt bad, or what the signals were that I felt bad, I just knew I felt bad. And that was bad. And I didn't like it, or I felt good. And that was great. And I did like it, but I didn't, I couldn't like join the dots of what it was, that made me feel feel like that. And then, you know, really kind of looking into, you know, all of this, like self development stuff, you know, neurodiversity, neuroplasticity, trauma, and how that shapes our experiences, and, you know, embodiment, and like the, you know, the gut brain and the heart brain and the signals your body can send you and you know, even down to stuff like intuitive and mindful eating, you know, looking into all of this stuff that has just helped me tune in to my needs. And you know, and communication styles like nonviolent communication, where you're expressing your needs, before anything else is, you know, is is something that really takes a lot of work to get into, you know, to be able to disentangle that. And you know, and that's been through reading books, and doing group development programs, and paying for sessions with therapists and coaches and counselors, and to get to that point where I have that vocabulary. And I've been really privileged in that I've had access, you know, to the money, like I've been financially able to invest that in myself and I and I know how much of a how much of a privilege that is. But I think that's why for people like me, for people like Sophie, my business partner, who has talked very openly and bravely about her issues with alcohol addiction and substance abuse. I think for those of us that have done that work, it is really important that we go out and we have these conversations and we put them freely out there into the world to to bring this kind of stuff into mainstream conversation to bring it into the consciousness of people who might not have had access to these sorts of conversations before and and that's why now that I'm armed, we will This knowledge about ADHD and women. And you know, I want to go and I want to talk on every platform available to me about it and about my experience and about you know, you're not broken, you're not, there's nothing wrong with you, your brain just doesn't work the way that most people's brains work and, and here's how you can help yourself. You know, I'm, I'm an ambassador for Beat, for the eating disorder, charity, and I go out and I speak in schools and health professionals about my eating disorder. That's really important work. You know, myself and a local illustrator in Sussex, Phoebe Kirk, we have created a series of children's books, which are all around mental health and diversity, and disability. And, you know, I wrote those books before I knew that like, I was gender fluid, before I was out to everyone is being by before I was platforming, you know, giving, you know, seeking these platforms to talk about mental health. Before I knew about my neuro diversity. I wrote those stories for young kids, because I didn't want kids to feel that sense of being so different from everyone else. And, and so for me that has, you know, I think as, as long as I have had my own platform and knowledge, to be able to talk about these things, I have gone out and talked about them, because at the heart of it is I don't want any, you know, queer neurodiverse kid to feel the way that I felt through my teens and my 20s because it was horrible.
Darius Norell
So I feel my heart opening, as I hear you talk about that is so sort of powerful. And so I've got another question for you, which is a genuinely genuinely like something I'm in inquiry around. You talked about your relationship to empathy. Right, and I'm gonna misquote feeling empathetic, right? Like, which I, which I get. And in another way, I feel like we're used to ascribe like, is deep empathy. Like, I feel as though I don't want anyone else to feel like this. I know how, how kind of, I use the word awful, but like, it's an intense experience, right? of feeling dislocated, not part of something and who do I go to? And am I okay? And no one seems to want me and I, you know, how do you how do you join those two up? Or how do you what language would you describe? If it's not empathy? What it what what is that? That feeling?
Alice Reeves
So this is something that I've only started looking into, into recently, after having some conversations with people but so for me, it's, it's more around anything I have felt or experienced, I can, like, feel so deeply in someone else, if I have gone through it, and I feel like I understand and have context for the emotion. But then if someone is going through a really difficult time, that I don't have any personal context for, it's like, I just can't, I can't understand I can't put myself in that position. So like, an example is like lots of my friends who were who are mothers. Like, when they're really upset about like, things to do with their kids, or, you know, like, I'm just like, I don't understand that I don't, I don't, I don't genuinely don't understand. And I can feel myself getting really impatient of like, I don't understand why this is such an issue for you. Like, why don't you just blow over her? And it's like, that comes out of my mouth before? You know, I can't even think of like, I don't know, I've got a friend at the moment who's like going through fertility treatment, and it's really agonizing for her and, and I, you know, I really want to be there for her as a friend. But then I'm like, Well, I've never wanted kids. I don't I've never had a desire to be pregnant. I don't, I don't understand why like, and my brain is going like, Why doesn't she just adopt, like, Why doesn't she just embrace her life as being like, single and for life? Like, what I don't understand why she's, and I'm trying to be sympathetic, but because it's something I genuinely can't access. It's like, it feels awful, but it's like, I can't even I don't I don't know what to say I don't I can't get there. Whereas when I hear like, you know, young people talk about like struggling to come out in their teens or being bullied for you know, you know, for for being Where or different, it's like, I physically can feel their pain inside of me. Because I've been there. And, and it's like I just like I really really struggle and and now I'm now I know that it's because oh my way of perceiving and seeing the world and the things that are important to me are different to other people's way of perceiving the world and the things that are important to them. And I think it's, you know, it's taken me a really long time to be like, you know, look, this, this is just different. They're, they're really like hurting, and it doesn't matter what they're, you know, what they're hurting for. You've just got to be there for them. And that's a continual exercise for me, and sometimes I to just say the wrong thing, and I will so often, like, brush off conversations when people are upset because I won't read the signs in their face or in their body, and will kind of just be like, Well, I don't know, I don't like why don't you? Why don't you just do this? Or like, what I don't understand why you're being so upset. And it's like, that's what I have to catch myself on, of just being like, I, you know, I can see, you're so upset, and I can see this matters to you so much. And I'm really sorry that you're in pain is a response, I've had to learn, really learn and really check myself because I have upset so many of my friends through my responses to them. And, and I you know, I don't know if that's neurodiversity. I don't know if that's a problem with like, a part of my brain. But like, it's things like being fired. I'm like, I was fired, I just can't get another job. Yeah, I don't see why that would be like, you know, I'm saying to someone. And it's that kind of thing of being like, look, just because it's not upsetting to you doesn't mean it's not upsetting to someone else, just because it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't deeply, deeply matters to someone else. And it's, and for me, it's been like, Oh, if you access, if you try and access like an equivalent emotion for you, and apply it to the situation, that's a way of building empathy. But that is not something that comes naturally to me at all. That is a conscious decision every time.
Darius Norell
So I'd love to share something, which is a, I guess, a mere reflection, or I guess, I guess, thoughts I've had about how to join those up. See what you think of that, like, so I'm like, one one way I sort of reflect on my development is, and you talked about, right, we're all making up stories about reality, right? In our brains, like our perceptions, how things are is not how they they are just our perceptions, and projections and and and so in a way, what I think about a situation or what I feel about someone else's situation is irrelevant. Right, there's a lovely phrase, and I do some work in neuroscience that no two brains are alike. It's not saying there's not neurodiversity, but like, every brain is different. And when I think about it, or what I feel about situation is irrelevant, because that person is having their own experience. And so for me, that's been a great freedom of whether I get it, whether I don't get it, whether that's because of my upbringing, whether it's because of how my brains working just like how can I be as fully present and attend to what is going on for you, irrespective of what I actually want my instinctive reaction is or what I actually or the thought that comes up just to be able to hold that so lightly, just know doesn't mean it's not about me. Like how are you? I want to be here in service of you. What do you really need and then it becomes irrelevant what I actually feel and guess what the other person feels like attended to and like oh wow, so lovely to talk to you. And so that's for me has been a way through situations that I've just been out of my depth in all my brains just gone like I don't get this or maybe similar reaction like I can be hyper logical sometimes. And that's you know, that's you know, people are you just don't know they don't You don't get it like no, I don't like I don't you know, all that kind of similar similar story. Like, just think, oh, I don't need any of that at this moment. But let me first be here. Just be Yeah. How does that play out?
Alice Reeves
Yeah, completely. And I you know, I resonate with the hyper logical because, you know, my my first response to someone in pain is how do I fix it? Is how do they want? Like, why are they telling me this? They're clearly telling me this because they want a solution. So how do we find the solution? And I think that has, you know, that that, for me has been a real like, thing to flip and be like, no one is coming to you for solutions. Unless they say, I want a solution. So, you know, it's really trying to like, like, even ask the question of like, do you want to be heard? Or do you want to work through a solution together? As a, as a real practice, because my, when someone confides in me with something difficult, and I can see they're visibly emotional, it's almost like my brain starts to scramble for like, Oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my god, like, I'm in panic. What is the right thing to say? I feel my heart rate elevate. I feel like what do they need from me? What do they want me to say? What do they want me to do? And my because my brain is just scrabbling. I never tably say the wrong thing. And then it ends up in an argument. And then I get more anxious and more panicked. And that has been like, the experience of most emotionally charged conversations for me for for most of my life is just this sense of total panic of what do they want me to do? And how do I avoid saying the wrong thing? Instead of going to well just say nothing? Like, just tell them you hear them? And like that, and that is a conscious, like, have to really stop myself from from entering this complete emotional panic?
Darius Norell
Yeah. Because one story might be or one version of or frame would be, why else would you be telling me this unless you want me to do something about it? Like that would be the only bite that's at a frame right? So logistical frame of thinking about well, what you know, you've just rung me like, clearly there's something to do here. Versus now. I've got a I've got kids, and they they fall over and hurt themselves. 90% of the time, it's just like, oh, yeah, that's Yeah, yeah, that's a screen. Yeah. And a minute later is like they they're off and running. And you're like, there's actually nothing just just like, let me witness and no, yeah. Oh, gosh. That's a big one. Yeah. That's yeah. And you know, what you're saying you're really listening for what is the request him? What is what is wanted? And just being for me to stay in that? Inquiry, inquiry? Even if it's, I mean, it could be explicitly asked, or it could just be, I'm just gonna listen through that lens of what are you really wanting him? And let me just listen. Yeah, like this have that as 90% of my focus. Yeah.
Alice Reeves
Yeah. And that, you know, that this is all currently my own journey, you know, because, you know, a couple of years ago, like, we had a situation where this just completely like blew up in our face from the business from a partnership we were working on, because of that breakdown in communication, and that not listening and not hearing what the person wanted. And that was deeply, deeply painful. So for the last couple of years, this has really been where I've been looking on where I've been inquiring of, like, how do I work in my communication, to find a way to access empathy to hold a space instead of jumping in to, to rein myself back from like, jumping in solutions, because I think so much of my identity, my personal identity, is I'm a problem solver, and I get shit done. And I make things better for people. And like, that is what I do. And it's really, really hard to not bring that into friends. As well, when, you know, it's, that's great for a business sense, because literally people are paying me to come to me with a problem and say, fix it. Which I do, and I'm good at but that's not the case in in friendships and in relationships all the time. And that's been that's been a massive learning for me over the last couple of years is that jumping in and bulldozing with what you think is the right thing to do without any communication is never going to end well. Ever.
Darius Norell
Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna make it a claim, which is even in the business side. Building that skill and quality can also be transformation in terms of the level of relationship right because often we get a request, is that the real request? Does a peaceful person feel really safe to tell you what the issue is, you know, like it's a really even even Being able to be less overt in. And you know, I remember I've seen I remember a coaching conversation I had with someone and actually come off a meditation retreat. And I don't think I said a word in the whole conversation about conversation like they were talking. And they said to me, I was like Darius, this is the best session we've had. And I was really my identity was really, like, I haven't said anything. I have all these good questions. I've got all these perspective, like, I. And I was so committed to being good. I was like, why couldn't deny that? Okay, they just said that was the best, like, so I was really attentive, really, like it was really a space of listening. But like, what about me, I supposed to do something here? Like, if you're paying me like, What are you gonna pay me just to sit quietly and listen, like? So it's such a big shift for me and confronting to get really spacious with, oh, I don't actually need to say me, necessarily, maybe at some point, I will.
Alice Reeves
And for someone with ADHD, that's really hard. To be like, I don't have to say anything. But that's what I do. I say stuff all the time, at great speed, and volume.
Darius Norell
So how's this, we're kind of at time, how has this conversation been?
Alice Reeves
Oh, it's been wonderful. It's been wonderful, thank you for, you know, giving me the space to talk about like, all of this stuff, because like, like I said, it's so important to me personally, that, that people hear these messages and say, you know, what, you can overcome all of these, you know, obstacles, and you can still be running a successful business you can you there is a way, you know, you can be a queer neurodiverse women operating in the business world running a business and using your strengths to make an impact across businesses that don't have people that think the way you do. Like that, that to me is is is such an important, important message. And, and, you know, to kind of access, you know, other organizations and other business people to say, you know, embrace diversity within your teams, and make the accommodations for people who, who don't necessarily work in the way that everyone else in your organization works. Because that can be an incredible strength, and, you know, it, it can introduce new ways of thinking, even though it's gonna take forcibly a bit more work and adjustment from from you, it will, you know, it's, it's, it's really important that I think more people feel able to be their full selves, in their professional lives, and have that be accepted and have that be okay, and not be told that they need to change or tone it down or, or do things differently, because then they're going to be happier, do better work, build better relationships, have more confidence, put themselves out there more. And, you know, that's, that's only ever going to be a good thing for the world. So yeah, I think raising, raising awareness of of all of that and talking so openly about my journeys, it's one that really matters. And I'm really grateful for for the opportunity to, to have this conversation.
Darius Norell
Mm, think it's a real gift. And I think, you know, as I hear, there's like two sides, there's the, like, if we don't talk about this stuff, and we don't find ways of what the right word is of feeling into it, connecting to it, facing into the reality, like the cost of individuals is huge, right? If you're living, masking and carrying, and there's a huge individual cost, right? So on the one hand is cost like to the individual, and that's going to show up to some degree in their work, maybe to a big degree, or they're not there to keep the job or whatever it might be. Now, the other is this huge upside of like, wow, if we can get someone releasing their energy and ideas and perspectives, particularly if they're coming from a different angle, they can see things a different way. There's so much needed, and there's so much potential value there. So there's the kind of, to me a human side of the cost and huge opportunity to be able to tap into and work well with people who've coming with a different set of stop points and got got different things to add or need different things to be able to function well and the more we can have those conversations actually with everyone To me, the, to me the better. So I think it's I think it's, it's inspiring. And I also get the sense, which I think is I think is I think is important. I like for me, this is what I'm one of the things I'm taking away from our conversation is the the opportunity we all have to learn and grow and develop and understand, Okay, well, okay, I've got this bundle of me. And then there's the world. How do I navigate that? Right? And it would be lovely, if in a way like that maybe a naive part of me is like, well, what if I just didn't have to think about any of that I could just be me. And like, however I am is, you know, I don't even have to think about and yet the power and opportunity to be reflective and to notice and go, Okay, what am I intending here? And given who I am, I don't want to lose the core of that. But like, given my intention, given who I am my makeup? How can I use that in a really good way more resourceful way, helpful way, given what I want to achieve? And given who I am. And I think, I think that what you talk about, I think embodies so powerfully is that journey of learning and growing and reflecting and, yeah, this is I experienced you having the core view right there. And being able to go from Okay, well, what would be a way of doing it in this way that's not too painful or too heavy? And is mindful of okay, well, this isn't what I want to achieve. Like this could be a helpful way of doing it in this way. Well, let me just talk about, hey, you know what, this is the space I'm in today. So know it, that's really, that's a huge gift. Yeah. So I think there's so much to take from it.
Alice Reeves
Thank you. And I think there's a big, there's a big difference between an attitude of like, well, this is me, and this is who I am. So like you can like it or lump it, which, you know, is really aggressive. And, and that that's a totally different attitude to look like, this is me, this is who I am, this is what I struggle with. And this is how I'm going to mess up every now and again, and I'm really working on it. But like, just please have some patience, that this stuff doesn't come naturally to me. And I'm really trying because my relationships really mattered to me, you know, and that's a totally different attitude. But it's the same kind of like, you know, if you're continually pushing back against who I am, and requiring me to be different than this is not gonna work, I'm not the person for you. But at the same time, I want you to be able to tell me when my behavior is having an impact on you, so that I can have that space for reflection, rather than just letting resentment build and then just being like, Well, you always do this. So I don't want to talk to you anymore. You know, it all comes down to that communication to that reflectiveness to that space to that understanding that people are different to you.
Darius Norell
One, as a final kind of closing, I guess, one of the habits that I've built in is also like a check in of, well, how is this like, what feedback have you got for me? Like, what am I? What's good for me to learn or know about how this experience has been? So I'm gonna ask you that, like, any feedback for me? And yeah, how's the experience been?
Alice Reeves
I think it's been lovely. I think you create a space for such an easy conversation, that I've felt really comfortable to share all of this stuff. And yeah, I'm, like I said, I'm just so grateful for this space to be able to have conversations like this, which really matter to me.
Darius Norell
Though, like, I'm full of gratitude to you, and thank you for being you. And thank you for being you.
Alice Reeves
That's a lovely way to end a conversation. Thank you for being you.
Darius Norell
Wonderful, thank you so much.
Outro
Darius Norell
So yeah, hugely grateful to Alice for taking the time, but like, it being so important to her to share her experience being on a mission, I think it's so needed in the world, so inspiring to hear someone speaking so openly, fully. And I know, just reflecting on my own experience of some things I've been through that I've been reticent about coming back, Oh, should I talk about that? Or is that okay? And I think, you know, the stigma or perceived stigma of like, why shouldn't or is not okay. And I think it's so powerful to have people who want to make a stand for it and show up and say, Hey, here's me, not perfect, not finished. And you know what I'm making my way in the world. I'm doing good work. It's been really valued. I can, I can do great things. And sometimes it's a struggle. and his Yeah, here's what's going on for me. So I'm hoping if you've listened to this and you've Yeah, felt somehow taken a breath or eased or relaxed oh my gosh, I can Yeah, that's me like that's what the purpose of this is these conversations is really to have a little bit more ease in the world. So I'm hoping that, if that's you, that you feel that you're able to breathe a little more easily, you'll take a deeper breath and show up more as you.
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