#15. New Beginnings
“Is it about you? Or what you’re creating?”
What happens when we start something new? Darius is joined by producer Harry for a conversation around the energy of creation - be it a new job, career change, starting a venture or just a new chapter in your life. The two talk about being intentional from the beginning, the temptation to always “be in the story” and the relationship between “getting” and contributing. The podcast about who you are becoming asks, how do you start things?
Listen to full episode :
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Darius is joined by producer (and writer of these show notes - thanks for reading!) Harry. You can connect with me on LinkedIn @Harry McMullen.
Interested in the topic of new beginnings? Listen to our podcast on experimenting with a new habit, and read this article from us on resolutions.
The video Darius mentioned - Funny Interaction Between Kids Shovelling For Money
Audio mix and edit by Hula & Co Music.
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Intro
Darius Norell
Welcome to this episode of What's your work. I'm your host, Darius Norell. This podcast is all about diving deep into how we show up in the world the work we have to do on ourselves. And today you'll hear I'm in conversation with Harry, who has been a guest on this podcast before and also helps produce it. And he's bringing a topic, which is around how to start things. It turns out to be a great topic, we dive deep into it, meander away into a whole framing around contribution, how we show up for the world. I found it a really stimulating conversation. And I hope you do too.
Conversation
Darius Norell
Okay, so Harry, looking forward to speaking. Want to hear what's up, I know, you've got a topic that you want to put on the table for us to explore. So do you want to kick off with that? And we can, we can dive in?
Harry McMullen
Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if it's just that we're recording this in April and it's like, spring is in the air, or spring has sprung or whatever. But there's something, there's just a few different things in the kind of ether for me around this idea of like New Beginnings or turning over a new leaf, or trying something new, rebirth, regeneration or whatever. And so I thought it'd be fun to try a new format for us for the podcast, where I would just sort of bring this topic in and see what your thoughts were on it and see if we could find anything in exploring it. So new beginnings for me. And defining that as a fresh kind of chapter or a fresh start. That might be a new job, or first job, maybe leaving school, starting a new venture, becoming an entrepreneur that would all, I think, fall into that category for me.
Darius Norell
So I think it's lovely, lovely topic. Rich, plenty we could explore - anything particular that you think you would find useful that you can sense and you're like, yeah, there's something about this that I'm not clear on or what's, what's alive for you now?
Harry McMullen
For me, I think it's definitely in the kind of mindset arena that I'm curious about. That's what I'm curious about in that I find I've done things before, I've had experiences before where I'm going into something great, there's this opportunity to try this new thing. And then I feel like I get in and make 10 mistakes before I've kind of started. But I already have started and all that new beginning energy is lost, right? Because I've gone into it. Aand I think becoming intentional about, I'm going to start this new thing, and here's how I'm going to approach it or here's what I might see as the opportunity to approach it is kind of what I'm hoping to get out of that.
Darius Norell
So let me read it back. Make sure I got it, which is you notice it's got a lot of energy about the possibility of something new the opportunity and something new. And often frequently that then dissipates quite quickly having got stuck in, rushed into it? And it's suddenly there's not there's not that energy is dissipated?
Harry McMullen
So yeah, yeah, that's the kind of I felt like a maybe wasn't as intentional as I could have been about how I'm going to take this step forward. It just took it and then yeah.
Darius Norell
Great. So so it may be annoying for a moment. So you've clarity, you've got that insight. And you kind of answered even like in your firm, and I need to give any repeated back half of it, which was, hey, this is what I'm facing. And then it's like, oh, if I was more intentional deliberate in managing it, then that seems like that would resolve it. So that seems like a pretty sensible, clear. Way to tackle what you've talked about.
Harry McMullen
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's definitely something in there of, even if just a mindset change of if I get in and make 10 mistakes, brilliant. I've learned 10 things. That's our way of looking at it. I think. Yeah, I'm just I'm curious because I know that you're someone who has started eventually started businesses. There's a lot of stuff actually we haven't talked about due to your own kind of personal experience of, of starting new ventures or trying new things. And I'm curious about what what you've learned what your kind of insights are from doing that?
Darius Norell
Yeah, I think I mean, let's, let's see if there's, there's things there, which are helpful, I think, I guess in its simplest form, and this maybe speaks to something you were talking about is just having a really clear, go no go point for starting what needs to be a place for me to start. And then what's what needs to be in place for me to continue? As, okay, if I get to this point by then then that'll unlock the next phase. So that helps me bring a lot of energy and focus energy into a phase one, let's say, really clear, like, Okay, if I don't achieve or accomplish that goal, and make this progress by that time, then then I'm not going to do phase two. And having that set out ahead of time, and then being really rigorous about sticking to it, not like, oh, I pull this and as you know, I got close. So I think, you know, just kind of that was the criteria. There's also there's not opportunity to review. But just to be very wary of reviewing after the fact, like, oh, you know, let's say you put x 1000 pounds into something, like I had a project I started. And I'm trying to remember the commitments something like, and he's got 30,000 pounds of revenue. And the phase two, make a bit of salt, so 30 pounds, 30,000 pounds worth of stuff. And if I'd done that by a particular date, then that would unlock phase two, which would then be a much bigger investment, potential downside risk, all that kind of stuff. So it's gonna be okay, if I did that. I wouldn't if I didn't, I wouldn't. So you get to 25. You're like, oh, well, I'm close, you know. But if you've really done the thinking ahead of time, then then that doesn't, doesn't really work. Because the whole point was you needed to get to 30. If I didn't, then that, that, you know, the learning in that of well, how come I didn't get to what I wanted to get to? Should be informing, okay, what do I do next, which is not the sort of I'll just carry on anyway. It's like, there's got to be an adjustment to the plan, because I didn't hit the target and the bit that I set out for so I don't know if that's helpful that as a way of chunking down rather than okay, I've got this big idea. Breaking it down into a chunk, for me was helpful.
Harry McMullen
Great, I want to make sure that I didn't miss a chunk, actually, because I was hearing a lot about what needs to be paid for me to continue and being able to kind of review, but you use the phrase go no go as a concept. And that's not something I'm familiar with. How would you explain that to me?
Darius Norell
Yeah, I mean, literally what it says on the tin of Okay - I think the origin is military, it may not be but how I came across it was in a military context - what are the conditions for go, no go, right? Like, are you You know, if XYZ is the place that we go, and if it's not, then we don't just having that really clear, as everyone knows, and then just like, okay, the conditions are there, then we go. So, it Yeah, I found a really helpful way about thinking about do I do something or not rather than like, oh, well, I quite like to or kind of just yeah, just getting rigorous about what needs to be in place. What's on the go, go list? Great, I've done it that means go or I haven't that means don't.
Harry McMullen
Yeah, that's interesting. I think that because there's a there's a degree of intentionality even in that of going okay, I'm gonna be clear about is that what do I need in place to go? If it's not there? I can't go without that. And then being able to ascertain Is it there or not? And is there something that I can do to put that thing in place? That almost that feels like a lot of stuff always feels like it started before you started right? Or I would that how it would feel to me to go Oh, I thought starting was sending my first email or hiring my first personal or writing my CV for the first time actually, there's a whole load of crap in place first just to decide if I'm going to do this thing or not. Am I going to get a job or am I going to you know, go back to school or do a degree or whatever.
Darius Norell
Yeah, lovely turn of phrase - starting before you've started. Yeah, I think so. Exactly and it provides the container for whatever it is that you're then doing. And the ability to step out of it, right, so because once you're in something, it can be hard to get out. And yeah, so I think I'm good at doing it at the initial phases. I'm not good at doing it once I'm really into something that I can then I can you know, I don't I lose that connection to go no goes on like I'm in I did all the free things. And then even on phase one and phase two right now we're now we're that we go. And that, that can be a downside of, yeah, there's still that there's still some nogo. That has been one of my learnings along the way. But that's more about endings than than starting. So I'm conscious of keeping us on topic of starting. Yeah, really helpful to think about. And I think, I think also my energy, I've got a lot of starting energy. And that's, that's something I love doing. You know, I've done on a lot through my life in lots of different ways. And, you know, sometimes I put a lot of energy to starting something is still going 25 years later, nobody knows I started it. I was like, I'm just gonna have a raised in history now. And there's some of the things I'm most happy about was like, Oh, wow, like, I'm not even in the story. And it's still going 25 years later. And it's got nothing to do with me anymore. And yeah, so I love you know, I love I love that energy of Creation.
Harry McMullen
That's something that I had about, it's a lot like, I love that I've been erased from the story of that thing. I don't I mean, it seems like a just a could seem like quite a throwaway thing. But to have energy around, I've created this thing. And then it's, and then I've let go of it. Because I'm just happy that it's being creative. I think that's amazing. And I don't hear it very often, at all. Yeah, I just wanted to point that out. There's a lot of kind of the circles that I am kind of involved in, in my life for quite creative. And there's a lot of stuff about creative control. And and when do you let go of control? And what happens? You feel compromised if you're not in control of this thing anymore? Yeah, not to contradict what we were saying earlier about being intentional about these things, but just yeah, having that kind of approach to be willing to let go something if it can, or it should thrive without you. And not really, that to me would make me feel quite powerful actually, to feel like I'm not wedded to this thing, just because I like it. I'm attached to this idea of this thing.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Yeah. And if you think about it from the other perspective, which is, it's a pain to be running something, right. It's just like effort and energy and worry. And oh, my gosh, it's like what's gone, you know, so to be free of all of that. It's like a joy. And for it to exist in and of itself, with other people that are feeling committed and taking it in the direction that is great. Like, it's a it's a wonderful thing. Now, let me caveat, I don't feel like that about everything I've started. I'm just, I'm just giving you the example of that. One that where it feels really great. Other things I'm more invested in or I found, found it harder or kind of still hanker for like, oh, well, maybe this could, you know, maybe we could do this with it or kind of. So it's not a it's not a uniform thing that every project I'm involved with that gets to that state, or that I feel that way about it, even though I do feel great about that one. And ultimately, if you really connect with intent, like what is the intent? Is it about you or about what you're creating? If you're really what I would claim, like, if you're really interested in the intention, then it's got nothing to do with you. Like if I could, if I could have a thought, and that thought come into existence without me doing anything. Or without even knowing anything, that anyone knowing that I had the thought, right? But it happened isn't that a great outcome? might well, I don't even have to do anything to make this happen. It's like happened spontaneously from a thought. No one knows. It's like, in some ways, that could be the highest form of creation, and the most extraordinary form of creation. If we're comfortable not being in the picture, and just staying true to what am I really, in service of here. And I want to name it can be challenging because the I part of me, if I can put it that way sometimes does want to be in the picture and does want everyone to know like I had that thought or like I did it or I'm supposed to do something to feel like I needed to do useful in the world or whatever. Versus No, that's like that's a wonderful thing that's happened. It doesn't need me. Or that was my part to do like was that bit really sensitive to what's my bit to contribute here?
Harry McMullen
Yeah, I'm curious, actually, it's something that came up from listening to you then. We talk in a lot of the work that we do about a mindset of contribution switching from what can I get out of the situation to work my given the situation? And I've been tempted sometimes to think right, so any situation where I'm trying to get something, I'm gonna try to avoid that, because in some way that that's kind of wrong or selfish or it's what I'm trying to get away from. Well, my question is, I wonder if that's strictly true, right? Like, there are some situations where I'm going into this hoping that something's going to get created. And there are other situations where I'm going into it, hoping I'm going to feel a sense of acknowledgement, or feel a sense of validation. Because if I get that, then I'm going to carry on doing a lot of this contribution stuff, because it feeds me. Alright, so yeah, I suppose my question is, like, where am I at? Along those lines of, of maybe striking a balance between those things?
Darius Norell
Yeah, I don't think I don't, I don't see as a balance. I see. Using one as fuel and, and in service of creating wisdom. So wanting things is normal, right? There's like a normal part of wanting to get things right. This is, as you heard me talk about, like, it's often a default way of showing up in the world. Right. So, so making that wrong. I don't think it's the most powerful way of holding it. Like I like avoid any situation where I'm wanting something. It's a clue. It's like, oh, there's energy there. Okay, great. Well, what is it? I want? I saw a lovely clip. Maybe we can put it in the show notes. So we can find it of the clip was these two boys in the US, and they'd gone and rung on a doorbell. And they wanted to clear the driveway of snow. Like that's what they're looking looking for on job. And it was like, Oh, look, this house has got, you know, like one of these fancy video doorbells, this is going to be good house to go to, you know. And so this headlight, we'd love to clear this driveway snow, and it's like, okay, we'd like $20. And I was like, Yeah, that's fine. The only thing is, like we're heading out of the house right now. So here's the $20, we're going to leave, please do it while we're away, we'll be back in an hour. So she kind of close the door leaves and the video of the doorbell keeps recording them that like, We can be reached $20 Like $10 Like a scar on my you know, they kind of their minds go wild with like, you can manifest keep doing this, we're going to buy car and like you're gonna get all this kind of just like this material, like get get get, right. So that's an impulse, just a thought, like you're just noticing. And what was interesting, and I saw a bunch of comments on the video of like, hey, that's how I started, like the hustle that yours great, like, go around their houses in the rich area, and like, they'll pay 20, you know, so that was a lot of how people were seeing the video. And for me, the most important thing was what happened right at the end. Which was, as they walked off, the microphone picks up, hey, she's paying us in advance, we better do a really great job on clearing the snow. Like because she's giving us the money up front. Like so that was actually the what I heard is the deeper impulse was, we've been trusted, not like, hey, let's run and go to the next house and get another 20 Because we were in get mode, but like, let's do an amazing job. Because she's put some faith and trust in us. And so I think there's ways to use and there wasn't, that wasn't a conscious process for them. I think there's ways to use the fuel of what is it actually want. And with integrity and with commitment and integrity from this view of like, okay, I want to do something good in the world that's not harming other people not harming myself, how can I create? What would need to be happening? For me to be getting what I'm what I would what I'm thinking I want, right? We cannot do the whole question of like, do I really need is he gonna make me happy, all that kind of as a different conversation, but even just at a transactional level, okay, let's say I want something, what would need to be happening? You know, and I'm doing this in conversations I have with my clients, some of them paying me a significant amount of money for my time to work with them. And I want to get paid well for the work I'm doing. And even more foundational, more important to me is that it's out of the value that I'm creating for that organization that people are so happy to be paying me a lot of money and feeling great about it. And I'm feeling great about it too. Because of what that was like wow, look at what's getting created. This is so wonderful, and we're happy to share out of what's getting created. So for me one way I'm getting the sort of financial needs met and aspirations metaphor, great if we can generate some more money there, that means I can invest in this and so on and that the way to have that money flow for me is about okay, what what's getting created and who am I creating it with? And do I have a partner? They will say that we can have a real conversation about what's good and what's not. So that's, so I think the get the noticing that getting energy is helpful. Like, what is it I'm wanting from this person from the situation? Great, what would what are the conditions that would need to be in place? So that would mean that that would be a very natural thing for me to receive? Or appropriate or fair, or wonderful? Like, I think that's a helpful way to harness that energy into a great well, let me let me just create something that's so valuable that people would want to give money and feel great about it. And repeat it. So that's what I, that's where I come to. Does that connecting?
Harry McMullen
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's amazing. That's an amazing story. And I'm going to find that video now. And also, just kind of how deep it is. That rather than almost being something to learn, it's almost something that we've got that we unlearn. Right. And it makes me think of, there's a discipline of study, it's called The Alexander Technique, which has to do with posture, or use. And when I was learning about it, what my practitioner said was, this is something if you look at children of a certain age, they've all got perfect use. And it's almost somebody online over time, they can rely on it as an adult. And yeah, it made me think of that of there's a lot that we already know, before, we know we know it. And sometimes we might have to unlearn some stuff we pick up. But yeah, so I think connecting to that thing of like, it's innate in us to get and, and the gift is in it as well. And to be able to reconcile one with the other. This idea of fuel I think, is really interesting. Particularly,
Darius Norell
I want to add something just just as a thought response to what you were saying, which is, okay, well, if it's so innate, what's going along, what's happening along the way, which means we're losing connection with it. And, and one of the things is, how we're educated, right, which is, which is not even what we're educated in by the how, or which is very individualistic. Right, you're given a score for yourself, more or less, for the most the most part of what you're doing one of my earliest memories of school, I must have been five or six, I don't, I don't know, maybe, maybe six, maybe seven, I don't remember. And we got a little project assignment. And everyone everyone had a little project we have to do is just like a mini project, whatever it was. And the instinct I had was, was kind of noticing other everyone's projects and what they were doing. And the next day, I brought in a bunch of stuff to help them with their projects. Like, oh, here's a book, here's a picture, here's a thing, right? It was like, that's how I recall that it was like five or six, seven different things like for different people. And the message I got was, please don't do that, again, by the teachers like this is no, you've got to work on your projects, like stop working on other people's projects. And slightly more with a teacher or like this, but that's the system we're in like this, the thinking of this is kind of a disconnect. If you start helping each other, or copying each other, like get thrown out. I like failure exam, versus so it's really anti connection, anti collaboration, anti contribution, like where's the contribution in that, that most of us have grown up with? So that just to say, that's one piece, and there's lots of other conditioning as well. But there's one piece that I think is really deep that alienates us from the natural desire to help people because we get told off for it, or it's a bad thing. If you're sitting in the exam, say, hey, well, let me help you with this question. Like that doesn't go down so well. So yeah, that's I just wanted to add that in as part of the context, that's, I think it's worth thinking about.
Harry McMullen
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I imagine if you know if it is, I'm picturing my 18 year old self, summer holidays, I've just left school. And a friend of mine says, You've got to listen to this amazing podcast. It's called what’s your work. It's the best podcast you'll ever hear. But they'll be like, listen to this. If you're looking at trying to get a job or what you're going to do next, I imagine that myself will be thinking about I'll be listening to this conversation and going well, this is irrelevant to me. I just need to get a job. Like I just, I was going to school, and I did have something and I got my levels or whatever. And now apparently I've got to get a job and be a grown up and figure my life out. How will you know what I'm doing? Everyone's competing for the same stuff. Should I go to uni? Should I do this? Should I do that? And my mind told We would not be in great. I don't go to school anymore. I've got all this time and resource to start making contributions and helping people and doing stuff. And so yeah, so really, that makes no sense to me that you, you would connect to kind of school. And it's something that, you know, we unlearn along the way. Yeah. And I guess that's, that's what helps me. I don't know, that's a personal level, this was a new beginning for me to get involved in employability in this kind of work. And we've all sort of ended up doing this podcast together, because that was something I have to learn. And it's it feels like, some of that's needed.
Darius Norell
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, at a surface level, there's lots of messaging, that's about getting stuff, right. And that if we get stuff will be happy, or if we are that you need to, or you should, or that's the way that you feel smart. That's how you negotiate and all that kind of stuff. And I don't think it holds up to scrutiny in terms of if you really look at it, like how do you want to live in the world in a way that's going to be happy and joyful for you and others around you? That Me, me, me is there's less potential in than going beyond me. Right? And I'm not feeling not the first person to have said that or had that thought. And it can take a while to get it. Because it seems counterintuitive of Well, surely, if I just tried to focus on getting the most, then then I end up with the most. It's like, well look at people around you in your life that you must know people like that, who that's a big part of that. Are they fun to spend time with? No, what do you kind of go into their orbit in like, Well, what do you get? What are you gonna get from me? Like, you're just you're just such in such a get mode. So even at a very basic level, we can see very quickly as like, oh, well, you certainly don't become attractive to be around if I'm if I'm coming, you know, if you're fully in get mono spending time with him, like, Oh, he's always trying to get something from me. Like, that doesn't feel very nice. So why would I want to spend time with you? versus, you know, I know someone he's such an amazing example, if he finds some, if you find something that's interesting, useful. The first instinct he has is like, I want to share this with everyone. And by that he doesn't mean like, Oh, I'm going to tell you about it, he's going to buy you one. And I'll buy 1020 of these things like hey, have you got to have this is amazing. Like that. It's just deepen, you know, some beautiful quality. Just just deep in him is like, his first thought is that meat, let me share this brilliant thing that's been great for me. Could be a little gadget can be a book could be a whatever. Like, just that spirit of I found this useful. Let me share it with you. And I think that's a beautiful quality. Another person I know. He's his, he decided he would send he had a couple of 1000 people on his mailing list. I'm not going to mention because I won't embarrass him. And he decided to send everyone a book as a gift. Like, it's like, Oh, I've come across this book. Buy 2000 copies, right? That's not a trivial investment. Send it to everyone around the world because he had a global you know, like, he you are like I read this, I think is really fascinating. I hope you find it of interest. He said the response he got was astounding. Right? Some people wrote back, like send the book back. How dare you send this to me? What is it you want? What's your agenda? Takeme off your mailing list like because they will their world is so unlikely if I get something is the only reason you ever give something is because you're trying to get something he's like, Well, thank you. I mean, that's you know, thank you for letting me know that you're not the person I need on my mailing list like but wow. So So you know, in my language like entering the world so tightly that's like a give you something freely that I'm hoping is gonna be of use to you. And you can only receive it as right What are you trying to get from me? What does that say likely about that person and how they're seeing the world through that lens of all I'm just out to get stuff no one would ever do something without doing it. So I think it's a fascinating it's a fascinating topic. Most most of us could do with shifting the needle to
what I think no matter what I'm gonna say most because that's my that's my experience. Most people are are feeling busy, tired, exhausted. I don't have time I don't have energy. I don't have enough time. I need to be giving to other people. Like I think that's a that's a frequent predominant mindset. And so most of us could do with shifting the dial to go okay. Yeah, even tiny things, okay, whatever, you know, what if I buy the coffee for the person behind me? I don't even know. Right? How does that what happens? You know, for me in that in, okay, I spent two pounds three pounds on, you know what? On a bar or whatever, why buy another coffee versus the joy and pleasure I get from that versus buying it for someone else like tested. I'm claiming to get much bigger hit from buying from someone else and seeing their reaction. I remember someone bought me some food ones. I was really hungry. We were having a meeting, I hadn't eaten dinner. Back in the day when I was eating in the evenings. And they miss heard what I was, you know, I was vegetarian. They ended up buying me as chicken thing. Oh, yeah, vegetarian was not, you know, not gonna. And then a homeless person having to come by a table asking for money. And I said, Look, are you hungry? I was like, Can I get you give me some food? Yeah, look, I have my have my meal, which I wasn't going to be if I wasn't going to eat it. The act of giving it I was no longer hungry anymore. I was like I'd eaten. So he had a meal. And he was now going to be able to eat. And I didn't need anything. So oh, I took like, puzzles, I'm going to get some hands like No, actually, I don't need anything that I'm now full. That feeling of hunger, like I really need to eat something got totally fulfilled by giving giving my meal away. Like, how weird is that? So it speaks to the reason I get excited about contribution is that it can be really magical. Or uses overused phrase exponential in terms of oh, I had one meal. And it's now for two of us. Right? Oh, that's magic, right? How does one become two? And completely spinning some religious overtones coming on here. But there is real magic in it. Right of like, oh, just by shifting my frame of reference for me, and what do I need? What do I get? Suddenly, what I have expands? And, and that to me, that's exciting. So that's maybe a bit of a ramble. But that's, that's why that's why you
Harry McMullen
I think there's something in that definitely. And then. And I also want to point out, like, that's great fuel, I think, for looking at this idea, and what do I get, if you want to try experiment with contribution, you probably get so much from it, that will lead somewhere else, right becomes a source of this cycle. And I think I mean, a lot of the examples though, you know, buy the coffee for the person behind you, which is great. And the the contribution can be free as well. Right? You know, like, I will load the dishwasher tonight, or I'll do the dishes tonight, whenever there's just something like that I'll walk the dog you sit down, or whatever. And it's these things can be small. But when I think about that 18 year old me and go into, you know, job interviews and feeling like I've not done anything with my life. I don't know how I'm gonna make things better around here. Why would you? Why would you hire me, I won't even bother going to the interview. Something as simple as it's gonna sound silly, but like, once a week, I cook for everyone. And it makes me feel good, you know? And that's part of who I am. Right? Just becoming someone who does things I found makes me feel like a person who's capable of doing things right. And if I'm capable of doing that, what else am I capable of, and just how you talked about entering the world tightly, like how I sometimes think of it as the world inside your head been narrow. And just one of the ways you can make the world wider for yourself and focus on that and make things more possible. That's amazing. The idea that you can no longer feel hungry by giving someone else a meal that makes my world feel so much wider. And that makes me feel great just to having had this conversation right? Out of nothing. Yeah, conversation, something's happened.
Darius Norell
My favorite free thing to do is give directions. Right? It's the value of it's so so timely, right? Someone's lost or confused or they're worried about being late or they can't find that way. It takes 30 seconds or a minute to do and I was leaving my house the other day, early in the morning. It was the odd situation is to young people were walking and I was like similar to the morning like, like, Oh, do you know the way to x i was trying to figure out like what what do you you know, how are you lost at seven o'clock in the morning? I don't, I don't get it. And then how are you just not looking on your phone for a map and anyway, it turned out they were from Australia. They didn't have fun. and service. I think I'm making up the rest of the story. They had jet lag, they woke up early and left their house. They haven't just arrived like, oh, we can't find our way back home. Like that's my story anyway, because they seem, they seem really lovely. I wasn't in a rush. And so do you know where this road is? I didn't know where it was, it was like, oh, no, I don't listen, oh, well, we're gonna walk down this way. I think we'll know our way from when we get to this bit like is that bit downhill? Yes, that way. And there was something that the man said was like, oh, like, if you don't worry, if you're in a rush, you know, we'll find the resinous. It was like, got the map out, found the direction, as it turned out, it was a different direction needed to go. And it was two minutes from where they were. Maybe that saved the 20 minutes of wandering around or worrying, or it's called whatever, it's great. It's a minute of my time. And they got what they needed at the right time. Lovely. And so that feels a way to be for me, for me, and it used to be very light about it. And to know, okay, that's been useful and helpful. What a great way to start my day. And I think the kind of paradox with this work is that people can hear it, like if we're deeply and I'm claiming that most of us are. If we're deeply in this sort of, like, we're trying to get something mindset, then we can hear contribution as Oh, okay. So if I focus on contributing, then I'll get more. Right, which is basically bringing the existing frame and just going, Oh, great. I'll do some contribution, then because I'll get something I'll say something nice, or, like that's missing it. The practices, how can I give without needing anything, wanting anything, building that muscle of just giving and seeing, being curious about what gets created, what you learn along the way, how the world is, you know, we've done this with 1000s of people on our programs. And one of the things that I see that's a real light bulb moment for people, is they have like half an hour to go out to the world and do something they go out and groups of two or three, this was pre pandemic. And they were feeling beforehand, like I'm getting rejected a lot. Right from this, I'm applying for jobs getting rejected a lot of rejections. I know good. Right? And it feels painful, because you're trying to get something. Is what I'm claiming. Or you're trying to get something that I feel like oh, I was trying to get something that said no that feeling it's not an unpleasant feeling. So going on the wall to try and contribute like, Hey, can I you know, they see someone carrying a little boxes, can I carry those boxes to your coffee, we'll help you load the car or the delivery drivers got unpacking their lorry, or there's some rubber, you know. And what they began to experience is how much rejection they got, trying to help people. And in that moment, they are just coming to slack just wanna help, like, no other than just want to help that Oh, no, sorry, you know, like, what do you want to help for or like a uniform for my box, or just like all this, oh, this has got nothing to do with me. This is the world and kind of how suspicious people are and other people with just amazing breakthroughs of oh my gosh, I was able to help that person that was amazing. It took almost nothing and I feel so different. And I'm coming back happy and energized and seeing how I can be part of this thing. So it's a really powerful practice as what I'm offering is to see the world not from your story about how it is but encounter the world in a whole different way. Just you know by having this mindset of contribution this frame your contribution and hopefully not artificially linking us back to the theme of starting it's a great way of starting without even knowing what I want to do it's a great way of taking some action and it's a great way of oh maybe you'll discover there is a you know a contribution for you to make some brilliance in our language inside you that you can then utilize found an angle for finding opening for see this got oh wow this desire this is wanted or needed in the world. Great. Let me let me engage in this more so yeah, it's just all around it's one of the most powerful things that I think you can you can do as a practice
Harry McMullen
Yeah, I think that's really that's a great lens. I'm just coming with I'm curious about a mindset to approach something new. And yeah, that mindset of kind of thinking about contribution. Think that's a great way it's a great new practice to try and bring in for anyone listening right? Whether it's a new habit or something small as I want to change a habit in my day to something as big as I want to completely change the direction in my life. Yeah, I think one thing that I had, or one link that I'm making and I want to almost send to check it is this idea of combat this idea of kind of fuel. Right, how do I get fuel to be able to do this? You know, if I was listening to the person that sends a book to everyone on their mailing list thing, I want to be like that person, well, then I need to have 2000 people on my mailing list, and I need to be able to afford to send them all a book, right? Or if I want to, if I want to be someone that can give directions, I need to know my way around here. And so I think this, there's something in that, that I'm thinking about, Oh, if I've got this innate, kind of get or consumer energy that I'm going to let go of my judgment often go, it's been there. It's deep in me, it's part of who I am. How, then can I make that someone that's going to save me, I'm going to save other people, it's going to feed this idea of contribution, I would love to be someone who makes a big contribution to people's lives. If I don't really have anything to offer, or I'm not aware of the things I have to offer that are innate in me if I'm not aware of what my brilliance is, or opportunities to kind of grow my capacity, resources, whatever it may be, I'm not making the most of the contribution I could make.
Darius Norell
To where my head goes is whether it's worth getting practical for a moment, like, like literally workshopping, can you give an example of something that occurs to you as a want as, oh, I want to get this and then and then let's work with it.
Harry McMullen
Yeah, I mean, a big one for me. If you mean, for me to give a personal kind of practical example?
Darius Norell
Yeah, yeah. If you're up for it. Yeah, it's
Harry McMullen
Yeah, sure. I mean, I think, one that I've got that a lot of people that I know share is to do with money, right? If I have more, if I had more money, I would make a bigger contribution. If I, you know, sometimes I am in a position where I'm not even financially independent, I think how am I creating things for the people when I'm draining other people, just to just stay in one place. So I think, yeah, making more money or having access to money. To me, genuinely, from an open hearted place, if I have more money, I can make a much bigger contribution. Now I could drive this car, I could do this. So I will get a personal trainer or whatever. I would love to start a company that makes a big impact for people, I would love to create a piece of work that speaks to people. If only I had more money. That's a practical one that's present for me almost all the time.
Darius Norell
So I hear that as contribution. I hear that as a contribution mindset, not as a get mindset. I, you know, it's what I hear is I want to make this contribution. And in order to do that, I need x. So I don't think eight to me, that's not qualifying as a I'm driven here, what is occurring for me more is the get, I get I get too many gets. It sounds like you might be stuck on how do I get the money then? Right? There may be something to explore. I feel like it's maybe a different topic. But the driver in this case sounds like contribution and impact. Then how do I do that? Again, that's a whole nother thing. I'm wondering if there's more. Yeah, something that is occurring for you that you want to get. That's not contribution based?
Harry McMullen
Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I'm struggling to think of one. And I don't I'm wouldn't be of Yeah, I don't want to come across. Wait. Well, I've smashed it. And I just come to me all the time. But I'm really struggling to think of like, there's something I'm trying to get just for me.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Well, let me let me give you one thing, you just said it earlier, which is you're recognizing you're a drain on other people's resources to put it in a way? Yeah. You're not financially independent. You're saying. So that would be a get right. Like I want to get, I want to be financially independent, right. Yeah, and yes, no, I don't know. I'm not. I'm sort of.
Harry McMullen
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's something that recurs for me. It's not where I'm at at the moment. But yeah, I think in terms of a longer term, get, I would say, I want to never be financially dependent again, right. I never want to be a drain on resources again.
Darius Norell
Right. Great. So that's a, you level, hey, this is something I want to get or accomplish for me. Right? That's, that's, yeah, we could there is a frame around, okay. And then that enables me to be free and available to engage in the world. But I'm gonna say it's an important need to address. I found that, you know, I did a lot of work on to really recognize that for myself. Because I was so in contribution. I was like, oh, I'll just get what's leftover. I'll get, you know, the second you know, so it was it was worth for me to really recognize no i I'm present in this picture of receiving the contribution that I'm wishing for others. I'm also wishing for myself. And so you may hear that in my language earlier in the conversation of being very free with Yeah, let me get paid well for what I'm doing. Not, not out of some scraps. So. So if you take that get, okay, I want to be, you know, not not drain other people's resources, not be financially dependent on other people and then channel that into, okay, so what, what might be happening just as a thought without some ideas what might be happening that means that you're getting just a narrow down like paid and paid at a level that's meeting those needs. Like what could you imagine? What's the contribution you could imagine making that might get that result?
Harry McMullen
One thing? Let me just make sure I'm hearing the question, right. So you're asking me to think of what is a contribution that I could make? That would mean, I was financially no longer going to ever be dependent on other people?
Darius Norell
So, yes, but I don't know if that means you've got what I was saying. So because, yeah, what would you be doing? That means that you would, you know, the amount of money you'd be getting as a result would be meeting and exceeding your financial needs? What could you imagine and the doing is not robbing banks will arise based out of contributions. So that's the, that's the switch, we're taking this kind of me level need, and then channeling it into okay, what could I be offering the world contributing? How would I be showing up that would mean that I will be getting paid?
Harry McMullen
Yeah, so tell me, I think the umbrella for that will be to be to be doing creative to be to be generated, right? There'll be creating something because though, that's one of the skills that I've got, right, whether it's writing or acting, or Yeah, creating content through this podcast and other ventures that we did together, it would be a creative pursuit, tried something that I this thing didn't exist, then I created it. And that was good for the people. And I got recompense for that.
Darius Norell
Great, so does that, I don't know that does that
Harry McMullen
Yeah.
Darius Norell
And as you say that what? Anything shift anything connects or?
Harry McMullen
Yeah, I mean, it brings some urgency to some stuff that I've got rattling around subconsciously, right about, like, oh, I have this great opportunity to maybe make this thing or like, I'm gonna set aside an hour to sit and get really tight about what I'm proposing or whatever. At which, at the moment feels like, wow, I'm doing I'm doing stuff day to day. So this, getting into this being generative or creative, I'll get to it. I've just got important things that I'm doing on a day to day actually, maybe there's a there's a sense of urgency around. Can I get into that? Is that the biggest contribution? Or can you make and so am I going to get the thing that's important to me if I make that the focus?
Darius Norell
Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful way of coming to it using it as fuel, to recognize, hey, I want to accomplish something, I want to get something, get this harness to get connected to that energy, and not letting it dominate. Right? It's not like that's the end of the story is like, oh, yeah, I want to I want to get this as important to me. And so what does that mean in terms of what I need to be doing in the world in order to generate in order to contribute in order to, to have that be on the other side of the equation? And so if it creates more urgency, clarity, focus, that's it to me, like, great. And then you're in the experiment of okay, is what I'm doing, generating to a level that's over and above what I'm needing? Maybe many times over. Wonderful.
Harry McMullen
Yeah, that brings in mind to me this idea we talked about earlier about. Okay, what makes this go or no, go for me? Like, what do I need to get, in order to make this possible? In order to make the arbiters vision that I'm going to start this new job, this new business will change this habit or whatever? What? Okay, well, what do I need to support that happening? Or not? So becoming intentional about it? And also, yeah, so what do I need? And then how am I going to get it right and then just did it? I think it's in a different that leaves me in a different place, then. I wonder if I could do this new thing or not. It's about how am I going to do it and can I do it? Once in a while.
Darius Norell
Uh huh. So a part of this is this, this is what I think is so helpful to recognize that need or the get part of ourselves, right? It's, it's, and this is fully named, like, it's just gonna be, you're missing opportunity to harness it, I think it's because it's a powerful energy. And to then be thinking big, right about what's the full capacity of me, what would be the greatest expression of me? Like, what's the best use of me? What's the what is, you know, and just really go bigger than than most of us typically do. I was recently looking at a program I was going to sign up to. So as an investment in me, if my in terms of my building my capacity, it was really interesting. For us, it was like a 5000 pound investment. And so it's not not not trivial. And one of the questions is like, well, what would you like to get out of this process? And I wasn't I wasn't engaging with it at a very deep, like, super deep levels that Yeah, okay. Well, what, what would be an outrageous kind of request or like demand and like demand, they're like, Okay, well, if I was gonna get this, like, yes, like, this is what I, you know, let me set you a challenge. Like, this is what I want. And so something came, and it was kind of weird writing it. And I was like, what? Yeah. And I wrote down. So it's like, it's six months. I think it was like a six month time. And this is like, in six months. What do you want? I said, I want to double my income and have the amount of hours I'm working. Right? That's, I think that's, it's kind of an outrageous thing, too. Right? Like, what do you thanks, me too. Okay. Great, like. So that's what I wrote. And so just even being able to conceive of that as possible. Great. Okay, well, let's, let's play with that as a starting point. What would need to happen? What does that mean, in terms of clients in terms of mix of work in terms of where I focus my time what? Great, like I'm now in in the starting energy of okay, let's, let's have a play of what are the levers here? And, again, given my makeup of what I'm saying, I'm not going great. Well, how do I inflate my bills? Or how do I, you know, find some ways of adding some XYZ on that people don't need or is that? Okay, great. What would the contribution I would need to be making in the world or for the people I'm working with? For that to be the case? And that'd be just very natural. Everyone happy about it? Like, wow, yeah, we're so happy to be paying that. So that that becomes you know, that's a stimulation for me and generative. House have a kind of get, if I could put it that way. Yeah. So and I also see that even just just writing that down was like, oh, it's shifted things for me. So yeah, it's starting to happen. Great. And then my brain is now more tuned to what are the opportunities of where am I working on stuff I don't need to be, what would be better use of my time? Where can I delegate and you know, all those sort of things? And how can I have different conversations with clients about what opportunities are? So yeah, so it's a, it can be used as a source of fuel. We finished with that.
Harry McMullen
And maybe this podcast could be a source of fuel as well, in that we could come back in six months and see how you're getting on.
Darius Norell
Yeah, why not? Like, and for you too right?
Harry McMullen
Yeah.
Darius Norell
No, you haven't made that commitment. But that's, yeah. Yeah, probably.
Harry McMullen
Great. Thank you. I feel really good about this new format that we're beginning today. I really enjoyed myself.
Darius Norell
And I also want to say thank you for being a great partner in the conversation and stimulating some thinking and reflections and contributions for me, so I found it great.
Outro
Darius Norell
Okay, so we've finished our conversation, love to take a moment to do some reflection on it. How did you find it?
Harry McMullen
Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I'm really enjoying that I'm here for the outro as well, another new beginning. I really enjoyed it. It was useful, I think to get practical about it as well and go okay, so what did this get that you want? And how does that how's that gonna feed back in? And it, yeah, I think I said it at the time, but it made me - it just makes me feel more powerful. I felt like I'm coming out of that conversation with more ability to go and do the things I want to do.
Darius Norell
and anything different that you noticed about how I showed up?
Harry McMullen
And? Yeah, it was it was interesting, I felt almost that you more kind of back and forth with me as opposed to try to tease something out of someone else who really felt like you stepped more into the conversation, which is great. I mean, I'm biased because I produced the podcast, but I think as as much of a blessing as it is that we get to scrape to come on the podcast and share the way that they do. I think that what you do is brilliant as well, and to to be part of you stepping into them a little bit more. And that was great for me to listen to, and I hope hope that it's the same for our listeners as well.
Darius Norell
Yeah, I noticed that too, it was definitely felt a more more active role, which was part of trying this this format, as is a more conversational, where I'm almost a guest as well as a host, I suppose. That's the right frame, but I love I loved how, you know, forced me to think make new connections have new thoughts. I hadn't really made the connection between contribution and starting before and yet. It's actually to me now now looking as like it was really inherent, but I wouldn't have I wouldn't have said it that way before. So I love that it's moved my thinking on and I love how you show up in with a question with something that's genuine for you, and just how the seed of that then can be you know, talked about creating like that that's a that's a gift to offer. The world is hey, I've got a real question. Like that's, that's something to contribute. So that's another we didn't touch on that in the podcast, but that that's what I experienced in you. Is that quality and it makes for a good a good stop point. Thank you lovely. Well, look, I hope you've if you're listening you've you've found something that stimulated you as much as it seems like it's stimulated Harry and me and until the next time. Next time, next time. Till next time
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