#11. Awareness, Authenticity and Listening - Hazel Beckett

“Do you know how powerful you are?”

Hazel Beckett is an expert in working with young people, giving them the opportunity to make their voices heard. She joins the podcast to share some of her own journey, getting to the heart of meaningfully engaging with young people and the growth mindset of learning. Hazel then meets with the No Alarm Clock group as they check in with their ongoing experiment, exploring the deeper questions of trust, the authentic self and how our view of the world can change radically through deep work. Some podcast discussions are eye-opening; for a world-opening exploration, listen to this episode now.

Listen to full episode :

• Click here to read the Show Notes

  • This episode is a continuation of the No Alarm Clock experiment, which was raised in the previous episode - listen here.

  • Interested in the topic of authenticity? Check out this episode on finding out what’s important to you, and this episode on building trust in yourself.

  • We also have a blog post on our website about identifying things that are already resolved and strong in you which you can read here.

  • We used the quote above from Hazel because this idea of discovering and owning your own power is such a key part of what this podcast is. We make What’s Your Work for you to find these connections for yourself and to draw power from, and she named that so beautifully in this episode.

  • Hazel Beckett has worked for the past 10 years in roles focussed on giving young people the opportunities they need to become the best version of themselves. Previous projects include the ICS, National Citizenship Service and supporting child refugees during the European Refugee Crisis in 2015. Hazel is currently working as an Operations Manager for Catch 22 - you can find out more about them here.

  • Alex worked as a Recruitment Administrator for People and Their Brilliance and is now continuing to work part time in recruitment whilst pursuing her career in music. You can connect with her on LinkedIn @Alexandra Purpura.

  • Casey is currently working in digital marketing and is due to graduate from the Kickstart scheme in May. You can connect with her on LinkedIn @Casey White.

  • Henry is currently working in digital marketing and recently graduated from the Kickstart Scheme. You can connect with him on LinkedIn @Henry Dewar.

  • Todd worked as a Training Administrator before graduating from the Kickstart Scheme. You can connect with him on LinkedIn @Todd Wheatland.

• Click here to read the transcript

  Darius Norell

  Okay, so welcome everyone to this episode of What's Your Work today, I'm really pleased to be joined by Hazel Beckett. And you'll learn more about how wonderful she is in a moment. For those usually for the first time, my name is Darius, and I'm hosting. What's your work, which is about what's your work in the world? And what's your work to do on yourself. And this, this is gonna be a little bit different, because we're going to talk about doing a podcast or thread, yeah, we're going to do a podcast, and then we're going to do the podcast, or at least part of it, and then we're going to review it. So we're gonna have a sort of three part piece. And so today is doing a little bit of setup. Hazel, do you want to say something about you? What would be helpful, useful for people to know about you?

  Hazel Beckett

  Helpful, useful to know about me? Oh, that's a great question. So obviously, you know, my name is Hazel. Currently, I work in the youth employability afield, but I've spent the last six or seven years working on managing youth programmes across the UK. My aim has always been to help other people, particularly young people. Yeah, that's kind of a wrapper of of what I do. There's obviously so much could be said, but...

  Darius Norell

  Let's riff off that. And we'll go kind of into a particular question. I guess full disclosure, we met about 10 years ago, I don't know, I'm hazy on the days, but is it? Roughly? And I don't even remember what you were doing at that time.

  Hazel Beckett

  I was working in aerospace. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  And somehow you found your way on to one of the programmes that we were running at that time.

  Hazel Beckett

  That's right.

  Darius Norell

  And so we can we can maybe reference that in a conversation. But that So you came through that? And then and then you stayed in aerospace, right for a while Oh, engineering, is that right? Or?

  Hazel Beckett

  Yeah, it was, it was two years. But funnily enough, we bumped into each other because I was unhappy working in the corporate sector in aerospace. And I, I could I deeply believe in sort of the universe or you know, an energy that ties people together. And a lot of that has to do with your intention and what you put out there and ask for and, and self reflection. So I knew I wasn't unhappy. And I started to ask the universe to say, What am I doing? Where am I going? Who am I? Why have I landed in her space? And what do I need? Do you know, and I didn't know at the time, so I was just putting it out there. And I used to walk to work, obviously, living in London, you know, catch a train in another train and then do a 20 minute walk to the office. And my walk to the office was often the best part of my day, because I'd get to see squirrels, I'd say hi to everybody made some friends. And then I think I'd been doing that walk for a year and never picked up the spring project sign. And when I started asking, Who am I and where am I going, I need help. I did the same commute I'd done for 365 days. And I noticed the spring project sign which I've never seen before. And that day, I got into the office in the morning and I Googled it. And I thought okay, radical employability. I don't know what that means. Like, I had a little bit of a peruse of, of the of the website page. And then I think about a week later, I went round, like one lunchtime and stumbled in and I think I think it was Andrew actually that first saw me and was like, Hi. And I'm actually from the moment of stepping into that space. That energy was just completely different to this corporate rush and pressure in the world that I was so used to living in London, it was almost like a big, someone just hit pause. And I know kind of Andrew asked me a question. And he listened so intently, that at that age, I was kind of like, oh, now I'm answering but you're listening so intently that I'm listening to my answer. And that was the beginning of of Yeah, just a really a really nice flourishing time still working in aerospace but volunteering with the spring project and and just being involved, you know, being involved in kind of the group faction activities and obviously me in your lovely self Darius and it was such a such an important time in part of my life.

  Darius Norell

  There's so much there, we could spend an hour just talking about you. And to me like what you just said is there's just Yeah, I mean, it's huge. Love, I love what you said about walking the same route, right? And we just don't don't notice. Yeah. And then there's that lovely saying, What does this mean? Like when the the students ready the teacher appears or something like that, right? So it's like, okay, it's right here was right there all the time, and now's the right time. To engage with it. Beautiful. I love what you describe in terms of the listening. And just how powerful that is to really attend to someone, and how transformative that can be. So yeah, already my I'm excited. And let's, let's, let's extend that into them, which is, which is this whole piece of working with people, right? And what works and what doesn't work? And so it's what I spend maybe five or 10 minutes talking about that? And then we'll we'll, we'll actually do some work with people. And then we can reflect on it and route and review on it. So what, yeah, what does it What have you seen? What what do you notice about that? what's working, what's not working? Or what gets you excited? Or lights you up? We like yeah, that's, that's good or not or whatever.

  Hazel Beckett

  I think one of the reasons that I've loved working with young people over the years is that you have to rock up as 100% authentically you. Because if you don't they see right through you, and you won't get anywhere. And for me, I think right now in this space here. And now, what I'm passionate about really is learning how to be that listening ear for a young person in the same way that the spring project and yourself and Andrew were for me all those years ago, because I don't I mean, you know, you can't predict what will and won't happen in life. But without having had, you know, that kind of wise presence of somebody really making space and really being present and listening and asking the right questions. I think that's what young people are missing.

  Darius Norell

  Hmm. Exciting? Well, that's, I mean, that's a really succinct answer. And and what we'll set up as a kind of middle stage of this mock kind of stitch these together is some time for you and me to spend with some young people. And, yes, I can experience that in whatever way that works or not. And then we can reflect on it. And yeah, take our own learnings, reflections on what what made an impact what didn't make an impact or not remember, just I think it's also a fascinating area of inquiry as to, if you want to make a difference, there's so much you could do that. Maybe even feels good, but doesn't really move the needle. And certainly if even if it does is for a short period of time. So if if you're interested in really making a difference, sustained difference, I think there's so many paradoxes in how to come to that work, right? Because it could come with an energy of wanting to or rather than taking responsibility for an outcome. We're almost sort of set up to fail before we even start because it's a disempowering stance for the for the person. So we can we can see all that in action rather than talking about it and then we can we can do some reviewing of it. Anything else he wants to say at this point or kind of put on the table or coming to mind to share?

  Hazel Beckett

  Just having a think on that Darius. At this stage in time think you're absolutely right, in terms of what it takes to actually make a difference and what the sustainability and impact you know of that difference is and for sure, you know, I've worked in international development since leaving aerospace. I've lived and worked in rural South India for three months and communities I've managed a national a programme called National Citizen Service, I've worked with 1000s of young people. And it's it can be frustrating to work in a system that is managed by money, and managed by commissioners that have key performance indicators that talk about bums on seats. And how many people turn up and I'm not sure that anybody has actually hit the nail on the head in terms of measuring impact. And I'm not sure if you know, there's very much like in especially in youth employability, there's the responsibility is put on, you know, career coaches and programme managers. And that's not just in youth employability, it's across the board. Yeah, my thing you know. That's not really what young people need.

  Darius Norell

  Well, that's a that's an exciting, I think, jumping off point into doing some work maybe in a slightly different way, and then see, yeah, let's see where we get to. So I've got I've got one final question then, which is any request that you have of me in terms of my listening, so I'm going to be listening to you and to the young people and myself kind of anything you want me to be listening? For? As we go through this, that would be good that you think could be useful for you as a as a kind of, when we're when we're reflecting back or reviewing what do you want me to be listening for?

  Hazel Beckett

  I think something that you do really well, Darius is, listen for the truth. Not the truth of you know, when somebody's talking because they believe that culture dictates that they should say they're so they should say that or they're trying to people, please. But listening for the truth of actually, you know, who are you? And where are you really coming from? And where are you really wanting to go? Because that, for me was always the most powerful thing about the spring project. And then it's asking those questions to say really didn't read to me. But that could be, you know, things that come up in the session or supporting me to reflect back because actually, we're all you know, yes, we're adults here and now, but you're never ever stop learning. You know, and you can learn something new every day. So I'm as open to learning and improving, as you know, that whoever we have on this session when we do a group session.

  Darius Norell

  Great, yeah, it's lovely to answer. What's your work, right? It's like, there's an edge there that you're interested in, like, want to live to? It's like, Oh, yeah. Is there anything, any way that I'm showing up that's less than 100%? Or kind of, you know, this? And, yeah, I mean, I think it's self evident, but I'm gonna say it anyway. least in my experience, we're all to some degree or other not showing up in the way that we've intending all of the time. Right. I'll say it out loud. But I'm certainly not. And that's my experience of other people. So I think it's a beautiful request, I think it's really helpful to if people are interested in noticing our water all the ways that I might be not showing up in a way that is fully representative of the best of me or, or what I intend. And rather than covering up of what we're running away from that, that we face into that wow, what's happening? Is there anything happening? If there is, is there anything to do about it? Or just Is that how it is at the moment? And that's okay, too. Is I just owning that. Yeah, that's, that's lovely. But I think that's a beautiful intro. So we're gonna we'll we'll stop here, we will arrange another time to get a group together. We'll do that session. And then we'll followed on with a kind of review and reflection. So no big thank you for this point. And then we'll we'll regroup.

  Hazel Beckett

  Awesome.

  Darius Norell

  So welcome to this episode of What's Your Work. This is a kind of continuation of a constant conversation and exploration into this topic of no alarm clock. What does it mean to live with no blonde clock? What happens? How easy is it to do? And we have a lovely group of people, Casey, Henry, Todd, and Alex, who've been engaged in this experiment in some way, shape, or form or other. So we're going to be unpacking what their experiences, what's working, what's not working, what insights and so on. And we also have Hazel with us, who's going to be listening in and kind of offering some perspective commentary. Wisdom, maybe as we go through we'll see. So - and Harry! Sorry, that's Harry after all that, my goodness because I - well, he's wearing two hats today, both helping us with the production of this. But also he's in the conversation too. So sorry, Harry. There we go. Yeah. Okay, so it's been a couple of weeks since we last checked in. And my recollection is that all of you, we're going to continue with the practice of not setting an alarm. And stepping into what I think the more I think about this, and we have these conversations, it's a really radical act, to live without an alarm clock, it challenges so many of us assumptions about how we, who we are, how we need to live, what life's about. So I commend you for taking this on. And whatever form you've done out there might be you know, I just haven't I just, it's been too hard to even do whatever, whatever's there. Let's unpack and hear about love to hear your questions. Challenges. Yeah, and just experience of what's been happening with this experiment, so I'm gonna open it up. Anybody want to share anything off the bat as a healer? Here's what's been happening for me. Was that is that too far? gone too deep, too quick. Alex, are you gonna say something?

  Alexandra Purpura

  I mean, yeah, I'll go ahead. I've been having a great time with it. Honestly. I think what's been really good is the trust I have in my own body now to be able to, like, just wake myself up know, I'll wake up, you know, between 730 and eight, coming into work, and not having to, like worry, that I'll be woken up abruptly. What's been like more of a struggle is when I'm explaining it to other people. Other people don't believe me. Which has been, which has been the most interesting thing, like, I'll be telling my flatmates like, you know, I've been waking up without an alarm for like, a whole month now. And they're like, What do you mean? Like, no alarm? Like, oh, I couldn't ever do that. Or you're lying to me that you can't like, what are you being serious? Like, nobody actually believes me when I tell them that, like, I've been waking up without an alarm? Because it's so normal to have to use when I guess everyone thinks that they have to use one I was the same. And yeah, I think that's been most of the struggle, like I have something really cool and really interesting to share with people and they don't even believe

  Darius Norell

  How amazing. I mean, I sort of, there's lots of reactions going on inside me. But how beautiful and how, how incredible. You've had that experience for yourself. Right? And so I'm happy for you to kind of hear that I hear that energy, I hear the freedom. And then just to see, and I guess speaking to about how radical it is, like how impossible it seems for other people, there's people that know you, it's not like you're gonna say that they think that you must be making it's like, just it's just not possible. How could be true? And I think it's in Wired. Yeah. Let's hear more from other people. But that's Yeah, amazing. So thank you. Yeah, thank you for kicking us off with that. Who else can share something about their experience? I can share. Yeah.

  Henry Dewar

  So yeah, like this whole experiment. I really like the idea of no alarm. And but it's, it's been quite difficult for me. I found it to be quite difficult in the way that seems to just be so much anxiety around it, like on no alarm days. I just, I just can't sleep properly. And I'm constantly so like, in like this half asleep, state of anxiety for some reason. And on the weekend, it's not like that. But yeah, just for some reason, something in my psychology or like, subconscious that makes me incredibly anxious about this whole thing for some reason. And also just based on how I feel like the night before, or like maybe in the middle of the night, like I'll wake up and just think there's no way I'm going to be able to get up at a reasonable time, given the way I've slept and so sometimes I like will think Oh, well I can't like trusted the no alarm thing. And so it's just been a quite difficult thing even though I wanted it to work. And so I think it'd be worth continuing experimenting to see if I can sort of like go the those feelings of anxiety over time. Because yeah, I definitely think it'd be a good thing to Wake up without an alarm.

  Darius Norell

  Thank you look, thank you for sharing so generously Henry has such a such a gift for you to see so clearly and to articulate so clearly what you're experiencing. Honestly, I'm just want to acknowledge that so free and so it sounds like you want me to I mean all credits you that you've been doing it is that right? Are you not been setting an alarm and living with this anxiety that you've been noticing and waking up? And I thought you were the most because I woke up in the middle of night, and then I set my alarm in the middle of the night. But it sounds like like somehow you're kind of committed to the experiment, even though it's it's causing tension. Is that?

  Henry Dewar

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I it hasn't been 100%. But it's been like, almost. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  So I'd love to offer some coaching then about given that you've got own energy and commitment to go, you know, I'd love to. Well, I'm going to use it was not to explore this further. And I guess that's the key, which is one is to come to this as an experiment, right? Rather than trying to make it work. Right? Give yourself permission to fail. Right? So it's just a genuine inquiry into, oh, what happens if I don't use an alarm clock? And you're in these very fortunate conditions that you've got a very lovely employer who's going you know, what, if it fails, that's okay. That's me. So if you have failed, it's okay. Right? Because the the learning of value from the experiment, I'm going to say is more important than did you get on in work quotes on time today. And it seems like you're quite attached to the experiment working, like I want to make this work. And I'm going to claim that's getting in the way of it working. Right? Because you're not really trusting like this, you know, let go of, hey, this needs to work. Or I can do this or kindness was like, oh, what happens if I don't? If I just naturally wake up? When I wake up? What what happens? I just set the intention to not just say I don't care. So I'm setting the intention. May I wake up at the appropriate time, and trust or see if there's another wisdom in you, when intelligence in you that wakes you up? And trusting also that if it wakes you up at 10? Okay, maybe there's something in that, that I needed that for I was avoiding something, and just seeing what happens. Does that connect for you at all? Or what? What happens?

  Henry Dewar

  Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm on nights. Why? Set no alarm? I do tend to sleep worse than nights, they do set the alarm. I think having an alarm is sort of like a sense of security. Yeah, it gives me a sense of security so that I know that I can sleep soundly, and don't have to worry about anything, because you know, I have I have something to you know, to wake me up. When if I Yeah, if I have to rely on myself or whatever, like my body to wake me up? I guess? I can't trust that. And yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't really I don't really know. The source. But yeah, I mean, I'm willing to continue the experiment.

  Darius Norell

  This is a big work that you're doing. This is big, deep work. This is why it's I mean, I know you're just - full credit to you for taking it on, in the way that you are given this chance. You're getting a lot of challenging conditions, which you're staying with. And when you hear Alex talking about oh, wow, I can trust myself. Right? That's, that's the opportunity is to kind of see, okay, is there something there I can rely on. And the only way you're going to find out is by seeing what happens and one of the potential outcomes is and certainly in the beginning and maybe an amine can be say just open to yet maybe it doesn't quite work. Right? And I'm saying that's an that's an acceptable outcome for this experiment. Right, you've got a window of opportunity to let go of forcing an outcome right which is really what this work is about, like you're forcing yourself into something in the circle once Why don't Is there enough here in me that's going to wake me up because there's something here for me to come towards. And if there's not great well there's a conversation as an inquiry about that. I'm just wondering, does that does it - honestly - does that connect with you? Can you feel a little bit of a letting go as I say that or does it well use or not?

  Henry Dewar

  I'm not sure. I have difficulties or feeling anything like that? And so I feel a bit out of touch with how I feel.

  Darius Norell

  Okay, great. Well, that's a lovely, also really accurate answer. So commend you for that. What if you were someone that didn't wake up on time? What what does that mean to you as? What kind of person is that someone who doesn't wake up wake up on time? What kind of personality?

  Henry Dewar

  Well, I would think that it's due to lifestyle. And so I guess is to do with my priorities. And so maybe my priorities, if I was to wake up late, it means that my priorities aren't like, my number one priority isn't work.

  Darius Norell

  Okay. And a person who doesn't have their number one priority as work is what? What, how would you describe them?

  Henry Dewar

  Well, I guess it depends with the other priorities. So it can be something really -

  Darius Norell

  Sleeping.

  Henry Dewar

  Sleeping's, I mean, it just depends like, when you sleep.

  Darius Norell

  So what I'm trying to get to is, what's this? What's the angst about?

  Henry Dewar

  I don't know, I guess that's something to investigate further. Maybe it's something trivial? Or maybe it's something quite deeply ingrained in my psyche. So I guess I still have a lot of work to do on that.

  Darius Norell

  And last last question, would anything shift for you if your working day started later? When you think you'd have more confidence? Well, I'm definitely will wake up by that time without an alarm.

  Henry Dewar

  Yeah, well, I don't know. I kind of a like, the hours how they are now. And so I guess I just have a lot of attachment to the routine. And as I've said before, if it changes in my can throw things out of whack for being weird. So yeah, there's lots of things pushing and pulling. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Anything that you want to ask or that you feel like, would be helpful to offer you?

  Henry Dewar

  Well, say on a night where I'm sort of like sleeping, not very well, from the anxiety, like, and I still wake up is in now, in a way is that like, should I get up then? Or they? You know, yeah.

  Darius Norell

  So what kind of time would be that? Because middle of the night could be quite, there's quite a range. What sort of time are we talking about?

  Henry Dewar

  I guess. I mean, I don't really check the time. But I'm guessing is probably like, between 3am and like, when I would want to wake up.

  Darius Norell

  So I mean, the simplest answer, and actually, the truest answer is, why don't you try it and see what happens? Right. So there's no there's not, it's not for me to tell you what to do. Right? So, so just kind of see, I mean, the check in that I'm doing is, how am I do I feel awake? And if I do, yeah, get up.

  Henry Dewar

  And because I wouldn't say I do feel awake in those situations. I my body like screaming like, I want to sleep, but I can't do anything. Or like I'm drifting in and out of sleep is like very shallow sleep. And so I'm not kind of able to think rationally. It's just so in a strange day.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. So the best thing to do is just do an experiment. See, okay, what happens if I get out? What if I read a book when I'm in and see? And then that'll give you some data rather than speculating? Like all this is all about actually doing something as you already are? Which is okay, I've got you're getting data, which is all I'm getting anxious to wake you up. Great. So then try to try some things and see, see, there's really being in the spirit of curiosity, right. It's the number one thing of being curious. So when you wake up, it's going oh, what what's curious I've woken up. I've woken up again, I'm not having a deep sleep. And in that if you stay with that, I'm claiming it'll it'll something will then become apparent.

  Henry Dewar

  Yeah, I'll continue to try.

  Darius Norell

  Great. Full credit to you. Who'd like to go next?

  Todd Wheatland

  Yeah, I'll go. Is everything fine? Because it was like laggy for me a minute ago.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. Great. So yeah, go for it. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

  Todd Wheatland

  So I think I've found it good. Because it's been quite easy. Because I'm already in kind of like a rhythm of having sort of a sleep and there's like, not too bad I guess. For me. Well, I It's quite a consistent, so I'm pretty sure I'm going to wake up so I don't really have that anxiety. But I think it would be quite hard for me if I suddenly wake up at 5am on a different day and then seven on a different day, if that makes sense.

  Darius Norell

  Okay, so you're feeling confidence because it's like, okay, I'm in a rhythm. I'm doing the same thing every day. Are you using an alarm clock toward? No. And how does that feel?

  Todd Wheatland

  This quite freeing, because I think mostly, I like that my first thing they hear in the day isn't just that same alarm every day. Yeah, that's, that's quite refreshing.

  Darius Norell

  And how are your energy levels? When you do wake up?

  Todd Wheatland

  I am definitely starting to notice something that they're a bit higher. And then some days, I just felt the same, which is interesting.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. Great. Any questions that you've got about it or anything? Yeah.

  Todd Wheatland

  So I think it would just be sort of the confidence waking up at different times if I needed to. Because if I had to suddenly wake up like 6am, tomorrow, I would probably be more going to assign alarm just in case.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. So full disclosure, I'm in that situation. Right. I've got an early flight tomorrow morning. So about half past seven flight, which probably means haven't fully worked out the timings but probably means I need to leave a half past five, right? And even that might be pushing it a bit to kind of get there on time. Well, I don't know about it. Let's say it's half past five. So I'm - here I am going, hey look, you know, do this thing, it's really great. Like, you can wake up anytime. And I'm noticing a little bit of, well, my sleep habits have been quite disrupted. I've got some stuff going on here. Like, you know, am I going to and it's a really, it's not it's the first time I visited this client, I'm not sure they'd be that understanding of me going, oh I didn't catch the flight - and great news, I learned something about my no alarm clock experiment. So I'm noticing some, you know, some tension in me of what am I going to do? So the great thing is why don't you Why don't you try it and just set it mentally you're like, Okay, I want to get up at seven tomorrow. You know, giving yourself some reason by like, oh, so that I can write, maybe there's something new you want to do or something interesting. So suddenly make it a positive experience, rather than just oh, let's see if I can and then see what happens. So you're not gonna miss a flight, right? If you don't, because you don't have to get up there. But it's worth having something positive to go towards that you could then experiment to see. Okay, does that build any confidence?

  Todd Wheatland

  Yeah, that's definitely I could try and do is just kind of think of a reason to do that. But what we're struggling at the moment -

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, okay. Well, I'm gonna leave you I'm gonna leave you with that. We might come back to that in a moment. Or you can maybe ask Hazel or I may bring her in. Harry, Casey, who wants to go?

  Harry McMullen

  I'll happily go next.

  Darius Norell

  Okay, great.

  Harry McMullen

  Tell you what, I'll go. I'll go and then you can go Casey. How's that? Yeah. Sorry, Casey. Can you hear me? Yeah. Was there a delay or something? Right. Okay.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, he's lagging a little bit. We can.

  Harry McMullen

  Great. So yeah, I have found it, find it really interesting, during the no alarm clock thing, in and of itself, but then also kind of just what doing an experiment has been like, I feel like it's just helped me kind of recontextualize how I see the whole world a bit. Because I was with the thing of, Oh, what if I wake up and I'm late for this, or I slept through that. And now I'm just kind of like, well, if I sleep through it, then I'll start late. And if I let someone down, I'll apologise to them. And it's kind of all going to be okay. And, and just like that feels like a real kind of letting go of like, oh, but at some point, something might go wrong, and then I'll feel bad or I'll make someone else feel bad, which will make me feel bad and it's just a it's just doesn't it's just fine. It's alright. And that feels like a nice kind of way. Yeah, just like it's when we feel like all these things like grow and older and try new things and meet new people and be in different situations. It all just kind of changes the way that I just use my self as an example like see the world and I just changes all the time. Like I've noticed a I used to be in a, like a training course. environment for a couple of years. And there were things that kind of seemed really like life and death at the time, like certain teachers approval or doing well in a certain project. And my wife currently is like, back in the same environment doing like a Master's at the same field. And I'm hearing from her every day, like, oh, and then like, I'm worried about this thing, or like this thing happened in this class that I'm hearing it and remembering what it was like when I was in that environment and kind of being like, you know, like, someone just needs to sell someone else to shut up to be honest. Or like, maybe you just need to take the day off, if you're that exhausted, like just a completely different context, way of looking at the same thing. I feel like this experiment has given me a new context. And it made me excited about oh, what if next time I did an experiment where, what if I have a cold, a freezing cold shower every day for a month? Like something will happen with the shower? And I'll have I'll be cold every morning. But also like, what will that do for the how I see the rest of the world? Is really excited. I would love to invite people to just do stuff, just to try stuff. Sounds fun. That could be eye opening.

  Darius Norell

  Wonderful to hear any. Do you have any questions about the practice or anything we want to check in on all?

  Harry McMullen

  Yeah, specifically about the practice. I think last time we spoke about it, I was wanting to get more specific about okay, I'm now waking up in the window of time that I want to, can I wake up in the can I make that window really short and specific. And since I decided to start trying that there's I've had some life happen, which has made it more challenging to just do the initial experiment without getting more specific. And I've sort of found doing that, that it's one thing to go, we're going to do an experiment, we've got kind of like some open conditions. There's something I'm kind of going towards, which is I want to try not use an alarm clock. And then I can be really intentional about how I spend my day. And it's just really freeing thing. And I'm now doing it in slightly different conditions where Oh, I don't really like what's happening in my life right now. Not because of the choices I'm making. What about the conditions that I'm in? So I'm less tempted to wake up and find it harder to get up? Yeah, and I'm wondering, I don't know, I feel it feels like there's just a level to go into there to talk about that. I would love some. Yeah, insights are important.

  Darius Norell

  So is, is there a specific question that you've got?

  Harry McMullen

  Yeah, I think. I guess like, what's the what's the value of continuing to do this as a practice, when it's not in the context of becoming more empowered with how I spend my time and more about doing it as a practice? I guess, just because it's good to keep doing the practice.

  Darius Norell

  So So, this sounds like it's a question about how you might be relating to what the practice actually is. Yes. What? And so you're free to choose to do it or not to do it. Like do you want it to be part of your life? Like as a way to live? Is this what you would like? Yeah. And to what extent are you finding a positive supportive empowering practice?

  Harry McMullen

  Yeah, I'm not sure that I do have a question. It's, it's, it does feel supportive. It does feel empowering. It does feel insightful. Yeah, and I think maybe I'm just like meeting some resistance with it. And that's okay. And I don't actually have a question I just we're in a space where we're talking about it and that's what's coming up for me but actually, I don't know if there's any value in me sharing it beyond just sharing it and that it should

  Darius Norell

  just explore a moment further it sounds like there may be a specificity to it which is you you dictating when you wake up. Right that might be sounds like there may be some some resistance and then be like that might be where the edges of this practice, because that was the step you were trying to go to, which is like, Okay, can I be really specific about it? And maybe the reality is, you don't need to be at the moment or even that's not helpful. And so if you just do my language earlier with Henry, like the intention, the highest intention that you can set in my view is May I woke up wake up at an appropriate time. I've given all these things all my commitments, please wake me up at the appropriate time. Right. So you're letting go of defining when that is is. So you might wake up at 5am, you might wake up at 10am. Who knows? Right? But it just allowing the given everything that's in front of me. To me, I wake up at the appropriate time. How does that? How does that? Yeah,

  Harry McMullen

  I mean, that feels like what I've been doing since the last time we checked in on it. And yeah, I suppose I didn't know if that was like, right or wrong or I hadn't checked in with myself about okay, am I finding that empowering or useful or not? And I think just to hear it language that way. Okay. Yeah, that feels right.

  Darius Norell

  Ya know, and always like, I don't know, it's just something to explore. That's one that's one frame that that's slightly different from which is there's also value in Okay, can I pick up the 602? Please? Right, and just having confidence that if I can set it, you know, and we're all experiencing different conditions, that different things are appropriate, different times, right? I mean, and even as we're talking, which is also helpful for me, I'm really clear, I'm not going to set an alarm tomorrow, right? I don't need to. And so I can set a, you know, okay, I'm gonna wake up and I will catch that flight. So, you have been just noticing, sometimes there is turmoil and turbulence, and it's appropriate, you know, different things are appropriate. And it's okay to use an alarm clock as I would have to be out of the tyranny I would try to get out of the tyranny of using one you don't have to do to any of I can never use one, right? If if I'm gonna give peace of mind for that moment. And I explained this, that there's been some times when I have used one when I've just seen, okay, look, my mind's all over the place. So I'm really ill or whatever. And you don't even need that to be the case. It's like, yeah, okay, you know, what that just had this moment, it's gonna serve me for whatever, great, do it live in a different timezone? Or whatever it could be. That's also okay. It's like, this is all about what supportive anything else you want to ask? Or is that is that meeting what you were needing at the moment?

  Harry McMullen

  I think that's yeah, meeting what I've needed at the moment, I'm noticing I've got, I've got, you know, 10 or 15, more lines of inquiry. And also, like, just one at a time is okay.

  Darius Norell

  This is the thing, which I, you know, I feel like you're speaking to in some way, it's a very opening up practice of, oh, it gives us agency, right? If I can take control of that, as in making a choice and keeping him doing that, that gives me power and choice in the world? And what else can I do? And how else is this showing up? And wow, how other people living it like, opens up a lot of different dimensions of ourselves. And gets us more connected. That's the opportunity. Casey?

  Casey White

  Yeah, I found it quite difficult to start with, I think I definitely had that anxiety as well. About waking up on time. But, yeah, I had to sort of ease myself into it. And I used to set quite a lot of alarms, and to try and wake myself up. But now what I switched to just using one alarm for a while, but now I don't use any of them. So I think that's some progress, at least, but

  Darius Norell

  That's huge. What are you talking about? Because like some progress, like so used to have multiple alarms, like in case I don't hear that one, because it was like, wow. And then he went to the because I think if I'm correct. When we're doing this initially, so I'm still using one at this, or maybe you go down to one at that point. I don't know. I didn't I didn't check. And now you've gone to none. Yeah, amazing. So how many how many days? Have you done none?

  Casey White

  That's in the past, like two weeks.

  Darius Norell

  Whoa, that's huge.

  Casey White

  So what do you think it is? It felt like it took a long time to sort of get there, though. So Well, I

  Darius Norell

  mean, the context of what you've got years ahead of you right now has taken maybe a couple of weeks to get to that. I mean, that sounds amazing to me, given where you start point with how many alarm clocks were there. What was the maximum number you've ever used? The alarm clocks? If it's okay to ask? Like five, five. That feels like a huge shift. Casey from five to nothing.

  Casey White

  Yeah, that's amazing. Thanks.

  Darius Norell

  So tell me more about the experience. How's it been not using one?

  Casey White

  Yeah, I found I'd definitely sort of settled into like a natural wake up time at about eight o'clock. And, you know, I've been pretty comfortable with that. But now it's like, similar to what Todd was saying about wanting to maybe wake up earlier or at different times, depending on what's going on. But I'd like to be able to do that. And I tried it the other day, because I wanted to go to the gym before work. So it's set an alarm, just so you know, I could, but I found it like really hard to wake up even just like an hour earlier. So I didn't go. And I just end up waking up on my normal time.

  Darius Norell

  So I'm gonna make sure I follow the logic. So you had an intention to wake up earlier to go to the gym. So really clear that, hey, I want to do this. You set an alarm at that time so that you could wake up and then slept through the alarm where you heard the alarm and just turned off and carried on sleeping or kind of what happened?

  Casey White

  Yeah, I just turned it off, and just ended up like, kind of dismissing that whole incentive, the thing I want it to do and just getting on my normal time.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. So again, thank you for being so open and sharing, right? This is what makes these these conversations so interesting and valuable. So is it okay to get some feedback on what what you've done? Yeah. So a deep part of this is, I guess, exploring what does it mean to trust yourself? And when you set an alarm, I'm saying that sends a sign of like, I don't trust you. As you're saying that to yourself, because I need to use the alarm. Right. So I'd be curious to see what happened if you just set the intention with no alarm. Because otherwise you your brain is getting mixed signals, which is okay. Do you want me to wake you up? Or do you want to use the alarm to wake up? I don't know. I'm confused. I thought you were doing the no alarm clock. And now you're putting an alarm clock. Rather than really connecting to you know what, I'd love to go to the gym for work. That means I need to get up at 7am I don't know what's what time were you hoping to get up?

  Casey White

  Do I think like some Yeah. Okay, so

  Darius Norell

  I just really being clear, just just doing more visualisation, right. So if you if you, if you're funny, you're not waking up, just really connect with the vision you have. Of how great it's gonna feel. Being in the gym. That's been so important to me, I'd love to do that. It's exciting when I start the day feeling energised. To just do more work on the visualisation before you go to sleep, and then see and see what happens. And then the magic of oh my god, I don't understand at 659. I'm way and I want to go and I'm going. It's such an exciting feeling. And the only way you can get it is by not setting your alarm clock.

  Casey White

  It's definitely sort of sounds a bit worrying, I guess, like, not trusting myself, but I won't know unless I try, I guess you would.

  Darius Norell

  And you've also got the results of not doing it. Which it didn't it didn't it didn't work, right. You didn't end up going to the gym. So you've got I mean, there's only one piece of data don't want to over interpret it. But like, Okay, I've tried that, that didn't create the results I wanted. So why not try something else? You sound unsure.

  Casey White

  Yeah, I think I just I mean, the more I think about something, the more anxious I get about it. So I think if I just don't think about it, and maybe just not set that alarm. Maybe that's just the best way to go.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, that's the whole beauty of experiment. You don't need to think about it. So it gives, let's try and see what happens. You're gonna need to worry about whether it's gonna work or whether it's not gonna work. Just great. Let's do it. Okay, let's I love to bring Hazel in at this point. So, yes. Anything you want to say having heard that conversation? What's coming up for you?

  Hazel Beckett

  Firstly, from what I've I've heard and seen, because it's the first that I've heard of, you know, of the experiment. And I think it's really brave. Because we are so conditioned to set an alarm to turn up on time to x y. Zed is literally, you know, hammered into us from the very earliest stage. And not only that, but the meaning of like what you were saying, Henry, in terms of who I am, if I wake up on time, and I turn up to work on time, and I do X, Y, and Zed is very much linked to your identity. And then on the flip side of that, what came up consistently through the conversation was the two words, which were trust myself. And we're not talking about trusting your social self. So trusting yourself that sets the alarm that writes the list that wants to please everybody that does what they're told. All that fits in, we're talking about trusting that you know, the subconscious side of you that kind of essential self, that self that knows what you're really excited about the self that knows where your biggest purpose in life is the self that, you know, that younger self of you. I don't know if that kind of rings a bell for any of you. But it's that kind of inner, most powerful part of you that you're trying to trust, which we're also not taught to do. Nobody at any point, you know, in the time of you're growing up, I'm guessing, and this is a huge assumption. But generally speaking, nobody will have sat you down and gone. Do you know how powerful you are? Do you know what you're capable of? And can you trust that part of yourself? So what, on the face of things is a fun experiment, and you've got this great employer that's allowing you to have this exploration is so very, you know, it's such a deep exploration. And I know kind of Harry and Alex like that kind of rings true with what you were saying in particularly, actually, now that I've started trusting myself and not setting an alarm, and I'm going against the culture, and I'm able to do it, people around me can't understand that it is possible. I'm surprised myself and now I can't see the world in the same way. And that's not surprising at all to me. So I think, the very fact that all of you, all five of you have come into this and gone, I'm really going to box my beliefs, put them to one side, and I'm just going to try it. Every single one of you has kind of wholeheartedly gone into that. And there's simply nothing more that you could ask of yourselves. Because what you're exploring is so very, much more than than just a fun experiment, I would say. And to reflect personally, I haven't haven't been involved in the experiment. So I can't kind of tell you the experience. I've had like direct hand. But I have done some sort of like personal development courses and things a few years ago, which spoke about a similar concept in terms of, you can decide when you wake up and you don't need an alarm. So I have tried it before, albeit in a different time in a different context. And I can really relate to what you were saying about the feelings of both freedom, but also the anxiety of can I really release this control. And I was reflecting personally, as you were speaking and thinking, Could I do this? And could I do it now? And I don't know. But I'm going to try to you know, I'm going to give it a go and if I'm late so I start work at 730. And if I allow my essential self to do it once I am a night owl. I am not a morning worm. So I'm going to try and if I'm late, then I have this conversation with my boss. And we'll see we'll see where that leads. So I really admire you all for for going on this journey. And also, you know, like Darius said, for sharing your experiences, because it's also really brave to just turn up and be really honest. Sir, I feel quite inspired by well.

  Darius Norell

  Thank you. I'm saying thank you, but I'd say that yeah, it's lovely. It's a lovely. Anything anybody wants to ask Hazel kind of reflect back or how's it hearing what Hazel said?

  Alexandra Purpura

  I think it's just sort of nice to have that appreciation for what we're doing. Like I said, with my like friends, flatmates, whatever like saying, Oh, well, that doesn't even make sense. Like, it's nice to have someone outside of the experiment be like what you guys are doing is really cool and really great. And you can I guess the thing that resonated with me was the part when you talk about your like self and not and like sort of coming to terms with what you actually believe is like, worthwhile and like, compared to like your social self where you have like expectations from other people. And that really resonates with me cuz that's very much something that I try and focus on a lot like, sense of self and my values and what I really want to do with my life and how I want to manage it. So yeah, I just, it was nice to hear that, basically. It's nice to be appreciated.

  Hazel Beckett

  Thanks for that, Alex, what I would say is if you can do this, what else can you do?

  Alexandra Purpura

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It definitely opens up the doors. Because I came into this thinking, this is never gonna work. Like, I am such a person that uses my alarm. And now, whenever I'm staying over at someone's or I have to use an alarm, I just, I hate it. I cringe at the thought of it. But yeah, just seeing how like, I can implement it in different parts of my life for, you know how everyone's talking about finding like doing it earlier, or start starting the day with like, an intention of going to the gym or reading a book or making some food or whatever. And like seeing maybe if that could be more implemented. And even not just the sleep thing, just elsewhere, like you said, elsewhere in the life in my life. Like my it's, it's mind changing, it does just completely change your outlook. Like I never believed it would happen. And it's yes, really nice. Just very nice.

  Darius Norell

  That's the beautiful symbol, essentially, you could use the word paradigm, right, there was a paradigm that you were operating in that you're now in a different paradigm. Yeah. And the most exciting thing about that is to have been in one that he thought hey, you know what, it's not possible to enter into, this other one was not possible for me. And then to have entered into it, right, which, which, for me, just as an incredible strength to draw on the next time you were in a kind of faced with that of what I don't think that's possible for me to know that that might not be true, that view that you have may not be accurate, that our lens allows that or even the opportunity or possibility of you entering into a different paradigm that you thought was beyond or out of reach, or. And that's what's exciting. Listening to you talking about that, at least for me is it's because then I can just let go of that thought, which is a very natural thought of that's not possible for me. But I'm trying to think of something that that might be true for me of nothing's coming to mind, but partly because because I'm just so deeply in like, I don't give a so little attention, like what I think is possible. It's such an irrelevant thought. Like, if I'm not an expert in thing, I've never done this thing before, how would I know? And so I just don't even pay attention or give it much weight. I'm more interested in like, oh, is this would this be a more interesting, exciting, happier, more in service align? Way to operate? Great, okay, well, let's see if it's possible, I can just not give any importance to my thoughts about whether it's possible.

  Alexandra Purpura

  I just feel like it brings back this sense of sort of like childhood curiosity, where you just want to try everything. And I've always been like that. But as you get older, there's more responsibilities. And there's more expectations. So I've lost that. And I feel like for me, it's opening that up again. And it's something that I've always really loved just to try new things and not be like, held back by my own doubts.

  Darius Norell

  It's exciting. I think it's wonderful. And if we're talking about connecting with ourselves, releasing our potential, living in a fuller way, this feels very aligned with that. Other questions for Hazel? Anybody got any questions or comments or anything? And he wants to ask Hazel about? Well, while she's here with you, and I haven't had much time with her yet. So anything that you're curious about that you want to ask if that's okay, Hazel, I'm inviting? Yeah, that's fine. Students or whatnot, maybe you're feeling complete nothing coming up for you to Henry, anything you'd like to ask? think there'll be no Casey? Okay, Harry.

  Harry McMullen

  Yeah. I don't even know if I have a question. But I just want to talk to Hazel a little bit more about this. These like selves that you mentioned earlier, because it really resonated with me when you said it. I feel kind of quite obsessive about this, like idea of this shift in paradigms and the and these kinds of selves. And I feel like I've got really quite deep relationship with this deep or this this kind of child authentic self. And I have a really hard time giving it expression. And there's this this kind of social self feels really, like - suffocating is not quite the right word, but it's just really in control of what I do. And it was great to hear that you want to do this experiment based on the impact of the podcast today, because I feel every time I contribute to these podcasts, I feel like the only thing that anybody is getting from it is that social self and I feel like it would just be better if I didn't wear the guest hat at all. Just hate my own contributions. It just feels like this social thing is just trying to say, look at me or whatever. And I was kind of as soon as I finished talking earlier, I was just replaying what that said, like, it was just a lot of I'm just going to ask the editor to cut me out of this completely, terrible. And then you to kind of pick out like, oh, yeah, like I had this and I saw this thing. And it inspired me that was like, great, really kind of reignited. I think like, I'm really glad that we do this podcast, because I love that that's possible. That's what I've kind of this kind of deeper self wants that to be my like life's work is to offer that possibility to people. And so it was great to feel like it, there was a connection for you there somewhere. And yeah, I just, I don't know, if, say, how do you do it, but like, I don't know how to how to let go of this thing that's kind of in charge, and go, Look, there's this thing underneath that I feel like I've done a lot of work on, that's raring to go that has like a purpose, but just stuck behind this under the thing.

  Hazel Beckett

  Wow, I can really resonate with so much that you're saying that Harry. And it is one of my biggest passions probably is trying to understand, you know, I like to call it the essential self or the social self, just because that makes sense to me. But there are 100 different ways that you could say it, you could call the essential self, the soul, you could call it your inner child, you could call the social self, do you know your kind of ego or your judgement side? There's lots of different terminology, I think there's so much terminology because nobody is quite, it doesn't, it's not really spoken about that much in our culture. So I've just kind of, say to everyone, those are the words that are used, but you can relate to those words in any way that you want. And I think the first thing that I will point out is that, you know, I've been on exactly, you know, very similar journey in terms of exploring, you know, what are the sides, and sometimes I completely forget, and then I go back into social self mode, and I'll ruin my life, and I'll have my alarms, and I'll show up as this person that I'm kind of not pretending to be, but it's not really, really who I am and who I want to be. And, but actually, you know, it's easy for us to go, I just want to be that self. And I don't want to be this social self, because it's suffocating me. And it's leading me away from happiness, sometimes, actually, your social self plays a really important role, because we're human creatures and human creatures live in tribes do you know we need other humans, we're social animals. And our social self is there to say, you know, these are the other people around me, and this is how I fit in. And that's not always a bad thing. It becomes dangerous in my mind when we're one or the other. But actually, if the two can work together, then you've hit the jackpot. So for me, it's not about going, I this side needs to go away. It's just that the essential self, for me, and for a lot of people, from my experience, and talking to a lot of people meeting a lot of people is that the essential self is just quieter. It simply communicates through different means. A lot of the social self is that kind of front of mind, ego judgement, it's you're talking, you know, when you're talking to yourself in your head, and it's like, oh, boy, I need to be on time for this. And I'm going to make a team, what should I have for dinner? And oh, they said that, but why did they do? It's that conversation that you have? So it's it's difficult sometimes to hear that is an essential self, because actually, it's that inner child. And I loved what you said, Alex, in terms of, oh, you know, I feel like I'm reexploring that excitement and curiosity of when I was a child, because children are naturally a bit closer to that essential self, because they haven't had as much time to have to build up the social self and to get judged and knocked down and build up the walls that we build. So actually, I thought you really hit the nail on the head there and it was beautiful to hear. And there are lots of different ways that you can connect more with your kind of essential self. I'm reading a book at the moment by somebody called Martha Beck and I don't have it I thought I had it next to me. But it's all about finding your own North Star And she's got quite a few I can send them over after. But she's sort of, she's been a life coach. She's a psychologist and lots of other things. And she's written a few books on how to get more in touch with your essential self. And the chapter I'm on at the moment is actually where it's talking about, you know, what, how the essential self communicates. So it's, it's really interesting that you should ask the question today, just as I'm on that chapter, I don't know about you guys. I'm not a big believer in coincidences, I think, you know, things are a bit more orchestrated than that for our own good. But essentially, where I'm at at the moment is that you can, let's say you're, if you're kind of going towards your, your purpose, then generally you're going to be healthier, happier, wanting to get up, you're going to be full of energy, you're going to be having moments where you're meeting people and things just flow with ease. And so it's kind of thinking about actually, when have I been really unhealthy? And how does that feel when I've been really unhappy? Like, you can identify it on either side? Because I was doing this reflection myself. And I thought, Okay, well, when was I last superduper. Healthy. Do you know? And actually, that one of those times for me was when I was travelling the world and I had no responsibilities. And it was great. And I was like, Okay, so that's something that deep down. I love, and where can I build that back into my life? And how can I build that back in? So there's lots of lots of different ways that you can kind of reconnect a lot of people, though, use kind of meditation, like just having that riff time to reflect, though use, what else can you do? It's really about just trying to connect back with yourself and go, Okay, I've got these pressures. I've got these things going on in my life, but what I really want and generally, that will be a feeling rather than a thought. I've found but I'd love to hear your guys's your thoughts on what I've just said, if you've had experience, because we're all on this journey together. I'm certainly still on this journey. And yeah, I'd love to hear your reflections.

  Harry McMullen

  Yeah, thank you. I'll just just because I asked the question, I'll start off those reflections. I think you said kind of mixing or how can these things coexist? And that being kind of like the jackpot? That was helpful to hear, I think, because I like that social self. I'm quite fond of him. But I feel like I can't, I can't. I struggle with Okay, there's a time where the essential self is maybe going to be more generous, are more useful to show up. I can't I've struggled to kind of access it. Look at this space, this podcast spaces, I think, getting to see this essential self of the people that we have on here to really generous thing for the people who listen. And I find it really hard to do that. So that's where that question was coming from. Because I just want to be cut out of this because I can't even do this thing. And I feel like I'm getting it reflected back at me all the time I had just loved everyone in this group has been on a couple of times we've been on as a group several times. And it's always just been really like the now I've always found something inspirational from everyone. And kind of feeling almost like I'm not showing up to the same degree or in the same way that I'm seeing be so powerful because of whatever. Yeah.

  Hazel Beckett

  Thanks. Sorry. That's a really honest reflection.

  Alexandra Purpura

  I really felt when you said that it was not really a thought or a feeling with regards to finding your passion, or like what drives you, and and weirdly enough, I was having a conversation with one of the coaches last week and she sort of asked me the same question. When you know, when you're experiencing something really good and where you feel like the happiest like what do you what are like, the physical feelings perhaps that can ground you in that moment, and make you really aware of how you're feeling whether it's like in your head, and like there's just one thing that I told her where it's like, oh, well I'm really really happy and like I think about the experience that I'm having at that moment, I get like hands, my hands start to tingle. And she was like use that to like ground. Like when you're in these like areas, those parts of your life where you're experiencing a really nice happy feeling, start to like take note of where the feelings are elsewhere in your body, like, Oh, my heart did this or my leg felt that way or like and start to like, take a note of that so that you can ground yourself back when you're struggling through periods where you're not feeling very happy. And you're not in a very nice environment. But you have to, you know, keep going. And yeah, I just thought that was like, when you said that it reminded me of that. And I saw and like how you said, Oh, not everything's coincidence, I was just like, maybe that's just the trick to life is to just be more present with yourself, I guess in the happier moments, cuz a lot of things aren't great. And I guess we need to sort of like, keep the good things within us as well. I find like, it's just so easy to just focus on all the negatives. It's another conversation we have at work a lot like we don't celebrate our successes enough. And we focus on a lot of the negatives within work. And yeah, just felt like that was very poignant for me.

  Darius Norell

  Wonderful, anything else that's burning unconscious, we've kind of done about an hour so far, anything else that anyone wants to ask or check in on. I'm also going to, I'm going to continue the conversation a little bit with hazel, kind of on her own just to kind of get some more reflections and connections and anything else, I feel like I'm interrupting a little bit, I'm also conscious of times. Anything else you want to say Hazel before before we move to a different frame?

  Hazel Beckett

  Yeah, I was just gonna say to Alex, thank you for sharing. And I've always found that energy goes where where your focus is it flows. So Energy flows where your focus goes. So if you kind of wake up and you're in a positive frame of mind, generally, you'll find you have a better day because that's where your focus is, do you know that's where everything's coming from. But if you look at, for everybody on this call, I feel like if you, if you look at where you're learning to kind of trust yourself, and the feeling of that, and the excitement of trusting yourself. And if you're in that energy, then what can come back to you.

  Alexandra Purpura

  Endless Possibilities.

  Hazel Beckett

  Yeah. And equally on the other side, it's okay to figure to get to get lost, it's okay to drop it for a while it's okay to experiment to come back. And you know that that's the joy of life. It's hard to get attached to I want this outcome. I want it to be this way. I mean, it's easy to get attached to that and but the joy is in just just allowing and trusting. Thank you. Thank you.

  Darius Norell

  What a lovely, lovely note to transition from I think. Wonderful. Well, thank you again, just to really acknowledge all of you for for sharing so fully openly, I think it's a real service. And yeah, I'm hoping you're getting value from it. I sense that you are and just just want to acknowledge what you're doing. It's bigger many, many levels. So big. Thank you for me for doing that. Okay, and with that, I think we'll we'll wrap up this inquiry into no alarm clocks, and I'm still curious what happens, but when you will, I'll hear some anecdotes kind of over the weeks to come. Okay, so we're back we're back chatting with hazel bank says he was just going to my radio show mode than all those. So I'm curious. Yeah. How that was for you. Thank you again, thank you for being part of that this listening to that what? They wanted to vote for you. Yeah. What's your thoughts? Feelings.

  Hazel Beckett

  That was just such a joy for me to be involved in. Like I didn't know about the experiment and actually listening you know, listening to everybody talking about it and what they were learning. Great experiment. And it was it was really, really inspiring actually, you know, not not just the the app, some of the kind of outcomes of the experiment and the learnings, but to see a group of kind of young people just really honestly sharing where they're at.

  Darius Norell

  It is amazing, isn't it? As you say, inspiring. Yeah, I got inspired to hence my commitment to again, I'm not going to use one tomorrow, what am I talking about? I don't need to have to smoke alarm clocks, and and you feeling energised? Often? Okay, well, maybe maybe this is like for me to try. Any, there's a long time since we were in a room together, doing this kind of work. Any any kind of recollections coming back up? Or kind of? Oh, yeah. I don't know, kind of any or not? Maybe it's not as was yeah, I'm curious about that kind of.

  Hazel Beckett

  In terms of recollections, it's the it's the energy. It's our look, I will always remember walking into spring project. And just straight away the feeling of being in that room was was different to anything I'd come across previously. And I know, you know, the term is holding space. And I always did question, you know, obviously, we've we've moved to this sort of virtual world where we can meet online and, and that's great for so many reasons. And for a long time, pre COVID, I thought so okay, but in person is still better. And on this call this afternoon. For one of the first times I thought no, this is actually just as good like this, you know, this space was held, you could feel the energy. And that's a, it's something quite special. And be it's a surprise that it can be done. And fell in a virtual environment.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, I had some of the same questions. I guess I was curious about how how, what would be possible, particularly with people that I mean, in this group, we've got some relationship because we've, you know, this is kind of part of a phase of work, but even just doing it with people that were brand new, how possible was that going to be with the technology with people's appetite or kind of, you know, some of the some of the work we do is quite deep, some of it's quite different. You know, are people going to engage and it was definitely, in my experience, it's definitely been different doing it online. And that it has been possible to, say, recruiting them, it's not quite the right word. But yeah, I have experiences like this, which, which felt off to me at least touching and seemed to be deeply moving for other people in a virtual in a virtual way. So it's been,

  Hazel Beckett

  because I remember in the spring project, I say, on the one hand, the the holding of the space and the silent moments can be very awkward, especially when you're not used to being younger and being in that space and be like, Okay, we're all just sitting here and nothing's happening. And then after a few sessions, I kind of got the hang of it. And I really liked it, because at the time I was, I was, I was just scared to kind of talk over anyone and stuff so often wouldn't get to contribute. And those lengths of silence in a large group gave me an opportunity to reflect and then actually to contribute. And obviously, on an online platform, those silent moments are even more awkward. But they're just as necessary. And actually, you know, being kind of a third party that coming in just just to listen, I had to reflect on listening to people talking and me wanting to go oh, this this go no, I'm just I'm not here for that. I'm, I'm here to just hold this space and just be present and be part of it. And that was a really like an interesting moment for self reflection, actually, and I'll take a lot away from from this.

  Darius Norell

  See more about it because I mean, you did an amazing job of of not speaking of holdings. It's it's, it is a there's a whole world we can go into like I'm not I'm not Doing anything What am I, you know, all that, you know, not even to go there, but just yeah, see more about it than what what was? What did you discover in that or?

  Hazel Beckett

  It was because obviously I'm personally about to begin on a journey, like learning more about coaching and techniques and practising that. And I think the place where I am in my journey, because I'm used to, I'm used to managing staff teams and managing, you know, hundreds of young people out on placements and having to have the answers and having to control. And then I land myself in this experience where I don't have to control everything, it's not my job to have the answers, and actually the power of not needing to show up in that way. And what I really loved is by the end of it, I felt like, because my intention was to show up and hold space and not to kind of control or have all the answers. The outcome of the session was so much richer.

  Darius Norell

  Beautiful. Yeah,

  Hazel Beckett

  yeah. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Anything you want to ask or talk about or feel like would be helpful to cover?

  Hazel Beckett

  I would love to know more about because watching, watching you kind of as the group coach, and seeing the questions and how the questions were very much, you know, you're this, this is your responsibility. And I'm just going to probe in just the right way so that you can go the next step yourself. I guess I would just like to learn a bit more from from you, Darius, really, in terms of I thought that was really nicely balanced? And I know, you've got a lot of experience in the field. Yeah,

  Darius Norell

  so was there Yeah. Love to share? Is there a specific question? Or what, what would be helpful for me to talk about?

  Hazel Beckett

  I mean, the, the question is, how would you do it? If we cut to the chase, equally, like I know that, you know, a lot of that for you is, is probably also, you know, just showing up and holding the space and, and using years and years worth of experience. But I'd love to hear from you. Yeah,

  Darius Norell

  I think there's a there is, there's a couple of I think there's a couple of answers that could be helpful, because I was gay, the practice of doing is the practice of doing it. And really clarifying, in my own mind, in your mind for you, what are you responsible for? And what are you not responsible for? And then also learning how to articulate that in a way that can be felt and heard and seen and checked. That's okay. Right? So it's so easy to feel responsible for somebody else anyway, let alone than someone who's maybe in some conditions, they're finding challenging that person, maybe they're projecting onto you like, Oh, tell me what to do? Or you've got the answer, you know, and there's so much societal conditioning about, okay, well, you know, someone else is actually disempowering for that person. And we're both doing all the work with young people, the moments are, particularly for young people, there's kind of a lot of disempowering frameworks around them around, I'll tell you what to do, if you do this, and I'll do that, or kind of whatever it whatever it is, it's just just that aren't helpful, in my view. And so just really being clear for myself. I'm not responsible for you. And however much I want wonderful things to happen in your life. I don't get to decide that. And it's not up to me, and that's a good thing, right? I don't didn't get to choose what happens to you. You do as if you were the person or the other person does. And so just being really clear in my own head about that, really seeing, I guess, you know, being humble of like, I don't know, as much as I think I've got a lot of expertise and experience like I don't know, I genuinely do not know what the best thing is for that person. I can't because I don't know anything. I don't know anything about that. It sounds ridiculous to say that. I could fall into that trap of like, oh, this is going to be good no matter what right and And that might be true 99 out of 100 times or 90 999,000 over 1000 times. But I can't say for sure in this moment that just just do this and everything's going to be okay. Above everything is not going to be okay anyway. Right? So be able to learn and build resourcefulness and so on and is a much deeper skill that I can be a partner alongside someone to go okay, well, what what, what's the, you know, my, my deepest commitment is how can I really help someone? Well, it's by them developing their own skills, you know, just getting them over this initial hurdle if I held them over it, how is that really helping? What's gonna happen on the next hurdle? Well, they're going to think, Oh, well, I needed help. So I'm not I'm not capable. Where's Dario? So maybe he's around? Maybe he's not, I've then got another problem to deal with as well. What do you know, we just did the last hurdle? Like, am I gonna spend my life just helping people over hurdles? No. Like, that's not my vision for what I could do best what I want to be doing, having people discover for themselves, how can I what happens when I hit a hurdle, and having people having more choice about what they want to do about it and doing something about it? Like, that's exciting for me. And that requires discipline and real discipline of, okay, I need to get out of taking responsibility at all, as best I can, for people. And if people make some choices, which aren't, quote, great, in my view, so Well, that's up to them. It's not that they don't get to decide what's good or bad. If they want to be in inquiry into what's going on, and what they can do different grade, I'm happy to be right beside them and with them through how challenging it gets and how long ago it's great. I'm there. And if they don't, maybe that's what they need a bit more difficulty first, right? Because I would not wish on them. But that's that's also possible. If Yeah, okay, there's something, something else for you to encounter first, or maybe I'm not the right person or whatever. So I guess being unattached to outcome, even though I care deeply just going yeah, that's, that's not me for this to decide. And I will, I will be with that person, but not take responsibility for them. So that's an important stance, if I could put it that way. And then from that stance comes the practice of oh, well, I just crossed the line, oh, I tried to take responsibility or No, trying to pretend I don't really mind what happens. But I really do I want you to get that job, well,

  then just then, then there's just working through all of those different ways of showing up with what you know, and just seeing okay, what's the outcome when I do that? And what happens when I do this, and I just know deeply from my own experience, it's just so much more free, it has a much more freeing stance for me to take energising starts to take. It's a truer stance to take. And I don't I mean, in the nicest way, I don't want people keep coming back to me and going, what should I do now? I mean, that's not my idea of fun. Like, when, even though there's a part of me that, like, suddenly dial back 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, someone's asking me what they should do. Let me give some advice. That means I know what I'm doing. I'm important. And I say, Okay, thank you. No, that's not my that's not what I want for my life. And, and, and who am I anyway, to do that? Like, I, that's not my place. So does that. How's that as a? An answer?

  Hazel Beckett

  Yeah, that's great. Thank you. That's such an expansive place to come from, as well. And I think you're absolutely right. It's practice. And yeah, I really love that. And even you know, I was thinking at the beginning of the, of the talk. Imagine a world where every employer just said, don't want you set an alarm. Imagine a world where, you know, everybody isn't taking responsibility for everybody else. Because we're almost conditioned to do it really. It's an unlearning. And it's so funny, you know, growing up, and we're, the aim is to learn, learn, learn, and actually, the happiest I've ever been is the more I unlearn the more expensive and the more ease and the more empowerment

  Darius Norell

  now being able to let go of things which don't serve us decondition ourselves as big work and it's it is freeing and it's not easy because it's hard to see the conditioning because it's just so it's just the water we're swimming in that we just doesn't even seem like anything it's just know that's how it is. The other part is to come to the question. The other part of the question is this and I'd love to get your take on this as well because it's it's something that I've been mulling over and I haven't been publicly that vocal about although internal you know, my own self has been very clear which is how are we Seeing the people that we're working with, right? Do we funnily fundamentally see them as capable? or incapable? Right? And I think there's so much language, for example, around disadvantaged, right or vulnerable, or that I'm not sure it's very helpful. Not so it's not accurate, but it's just I just don't think it's very helpful. And this because it is positioning that person, as, you know, some way less than right, or needing help or whatever it might be, versus being able to benefit from it. Well, you know, and so just, it's something that as a stance, like I'm in, I'm trusting the inherent capacity of people. And there's a sort of paradox in that challenging conditions can be great conditions for learning and growth. And I'm not trying to say, Oh, it's great that people are in difficult conditions, whereas people with some very difficult decisions are very challenging. And I just think we just really need to watch ourselves that we don't fall into the trap of Oh, and therefore people have less capacity, or less capable. And I just, I think, to me a lot of our language around this needs to needs to shift and I think that can be there's a lot of identity and being a help or helper, right? I mean, news was saviour. I was like, Oh, God, I think we're doing a good thing. Versus Okay, well, what if what if we, is there a different place for us to come from that doesn't need people to be vulnerable, or challenged or from a disadvantaged background or not from a privileged background? Or? So I'm saying that both has an answer. And I'm also curious about, yeah, how it is for you, or how that lands for you. And I can appreciate people might think it's controversial, I don't know. But given that's the way on the use of our industry, our industry is peppered with this language of how we're helping people that are quotes disadvantaged.

  Hazel Beckett

  Yeah, I really hear you on that front. Darius. And especially in in the youth field, I find there seems to be a lot of, of tokenism. You know, are we led by young people or youth voice or, you know, we've done some research, and suddenly, we now know what we're doing. And it's, it's very, I mean, you've only got to look back, what 25 years ago, and in the international development field, there was adverts for do you know, I won't name names, but adverts of you know, children near to death and really sad. victimising images. And it's not that long ago, actually, that that was going on. And now in an international development field, it has been recognised and they've said, actually showing that imagery, although it's evocative, and it creates money, which is unfortunate. It victimises the very people that we're trying to empower and it comes back to that old proverb of teacher Matt, you give a man a fish, and he's going to need more and teach him to fish and he'll be fine for the rest of his life. And then actually, it's a very, it's a very interesting topic to be talking about right now. Because you, you can kind of see both sides of the coin in terms of like the term, you know, disadvantaged, particularly when you're, you know, referring to sort of background and race and ethnicity in us in terms of opportunity. But equally, people that have come up across, you know, the most barriers or the hardest of times, they're often the most resilient, they're the strongest it, you know, that they're these people that are kind of broken open by the experience of the experiences of their lives. And if we don't come here to life to experience, what do we come for? Yeah. And is it helpful to be putting labels that victimised people? No, I don't believe that it is. I mean, is it important to recognise and to offer additional opportunity? Yes. But where can we actually be empowering people that we're working with because if we disempower the people that we're trying to empower in the language we use, we've already off on the wrong foot.

  Darius Norell

  And it's deeply ingrained where the language that kind of, you know you can only come on this programme if you are right, so it's kind of a Yeah, so I just I'm and in it with a solution focus is to play with it. Like what if we call it you know, lots of people have high potential programmes, right employees have high potential programmes like what What's that, like? We only work we work with people with high potential, which is people who've been through adverse conditions and live with them. We think those people have more potential, right? Because they've seen the widest side of life had to face into themselves question themselves more deeply had to dig deeper. So we work with high potential people, like what would that do the same programme, same people? What would that do to Oh, my potential person? Yeah. How can I use these challenging experiences? Not to not to pretend they're not challenging or difficult? Yeah. How can I use these? How can I see these as something that I've had the other people haven't had, which gives me an opportunity and an opening, that, you know, other people who haven't had those experiences are going to struggle with trauma struggle?

  Hazel Beckett

  Yeah, I think it's, it's really interesting, a fit, I feel it would be a step in the right direction. But not an end goal. Because the end goal is to recognise that every single human is is is empowered, and has the power to change their own lives. And by sticking labels on what is a high potential and what's not or what's disadvantaged. We're also pigeon holing humans, like what might be one barrier to one person might not be to someone else. Or you could have somebody who is, you know, seen as being a privileged person. But you don't know that actually, they've been abused as a child. But they don't fit in a pigeon hole, so they don't get support. Yeah. And they won't get access to this high potential programme. Yeah. And so I think it's, I don't know if it's fighting war with war, although it would be a step in the right direction. And equally, you know, there has to be a recognition of where we are at in the development of the monetary systems and corporations and life right now. And the reality is that we live in a monetary system. And we want to equalise, which is a good thing. But actually, for me, the end goal isn't let's continue to stick labels on people, it would be a much more, you know, a loving, expansive, where have you come from? And how do we support you who has the power to get to where you want you want to go? And let's look at that. And I would love to see a system, whether that will happen? In our lifetimes, I don't know. But again, it comes back to you know, it's the you we like fish in water, and we just see the water is normal. But actually, what if so much more than that is possible.

  Darius Norell

  So let me play devil's advocate for a moment only. Because what you're saying times so deeply with actually how we run the work we do, which is is open, right? We don't we just there's just, yeah. If you want to come on the programme come on the programme, right? Anyone, there's no, there's no requirement to be anything other than to show up. And we'll trust like, if you're here, then there's something for you to get. And if you don't want to come then don't do this, like and so it's really in that spirit. So I just just really connect with that. And the devil's advocate as this sort of funder comes whoever they are, and says we want to have the most impact. And their logic takes them to so we want to help the people that most need help. And then they get into the language of disadvantage or face the most barriers or kind of whatever. Yeah. So what would you say to them, then, in terms of as a response to this? They're coming from a good place where I want to, I want to say this works great. And I wanted to have the most impact? What would what would you say to them about labelling targeting, not targeting, what would you say?

  Hazel Beckett

  Depending on the funder?

  Darius Norell

  Okay, so

  Hazel Beckett

  depending on the funder, I would like to think that there would be potential for a conversation about impact and what impact means and what their end goal is. Because you know, whether they want a piece of paper that says, you know, we've worked with X percentage of x and y percentage of z, and this is where they now are compared to where they were six months ago, which, unfortunately, right now is what most people want. And yes, they are outcomes. And, and that's great. But the conversation that I would want to have in a very open way is what really is impact. Because that's it's almost like that's where the kind of monetary system has skewed things in my mind, because if you could get a funder to sit down and say, Actually, what if we could make As your impact over a three year span, what if we could collect anecdotal information about that individual's life, and where that individual ends up three to 10 years later, then the impact will would be beyond your wildest dreams. Because that's what nobody's doing right now. And even if I use myself as an example, you know, I bumbled across the spring project, some really great questions were answered. I don't know if I was even, like, formally enrolled in any way. I was just turning up. And some questions were answered and asked and answered and, and in that process of space being made. I changed my life. And if someone had collected anecdotal information about a note, you know, there are things that are measurable in terms of where do you feel your confidence is? Where are your skills? What's your, you know, are you happy in your work? Are you? Do you have, you know, five year goal or all of these things, if a full kind of chart had been made for me at that time, and someone checked in with me now, which is a decade later, the impact not only on my life, but the impact that I've been able to have on hundreds of 1000s of other people's lives, because of that turning point is immeasurable. And but nobody's trying to, to measure it. I think maybe it's just too big, too big a thing to comprehend. And it's not the water that we swimming currently, but technology is improving all the time. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think it's possible if not today, then soon, it will be. I hope so.

  Darius Norell

  And yeah, so to come to things the same size and time horizons are short, right? So as in, I mean, it's quite possible to do but it's just like, well, if I'm only interested in a year or two years, or three years, or kind of that I need to see an image, you know, I want to see what's happened. Then Then, what's happening 10 years down the line, like no one's focused on, no one cares. And then I think it's also true, it's true to say on I don't know, there's that. You you, at the point you encountered the work we were doing through the spring project, that time that was the nonprofit, we set up to do this radical employability training and so on. I think it's true to say you probably wouldn't have met a definition of UN work. You had a good job, you've got a good degree, you know, like there was nothing as

  Hazel Beckett

  a no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have been on the high potential.

  Darius Norell

  Oh my gosh, thank goodness, you know, we've got Hazel.

  Hazel Beckett

  But then we were missing out on these average people, and that's to put it really crudely, but what about the average people that work?

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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