#1. Values - Briall Baker, Florence Bliss & Harry McMullen
"I still don't know what I'm passionate about…"
In the first installment of What’s Your Work? Darius is joined by Bri, Florence and Harry from the People and Their Brilliance team. They talk about their working journeys thus far, feeling unsure of what they’re passionate about and how that relates to jobs, and then more deeply about what it means to have values and how to get in touch with them for yourself. Then from that place, how do you build a life that’s full of those things that are important to you and light you up? If you’re at the beginning of your career or a new chapter, or you’re looking for an insight into the minds of young professionals today, this is the podcast for you.
Listen to full episode :
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People and Their Brilliance is a Kickstart Scheme Gateway, focused on growing the long-term employability of unemployed people aged 16-24. You can read more about the Kickstart Scheme here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-the-kickstart-scheme-works
This is the first episode of What’s Your Work! It’s so embryonic and experimental that we didn’t even have a name when we recorded it. We later talked more about experiments and how to run them on episode 8 of the show, which you can find here.
We also were unsuccessful in our experiment recording the follow up conversation with Bri, Harry and Flo, but we did have it. Let us know via email if you want to know what happened next and we may follow up with them in a future installment!
If you are exploring similar questions in your own life, one resource you can use is Find My Why. It’s an online service that’s totally free and not affiliated with us at all - we just like it! Try it for yourself here.
Darius Norell is the host of the What’s Your Work podcast, founder of People and Their Brilliance, and the employer of each of this week’s guests.
Harry McMullen is the producer of What’s Your Work and Training Co-ordinator of People and Their Brilliance. You can connect with him on LinkedIn @Harry McMullen.
Briall Baker was Recruitment Administrator for People and Their Brilliance. She completed the Kickstart scheme in August 2021 and is now working as a Talent Acquisition apprentice at Direct Line Group. You can connect with her on LinkedIn @Briall Baker.
Florence Bliss was a Recruitment Administrator for People and Their Brilliance. She completed the Kickstart Scheme in August 2021.
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Darius Norell: So we're gonna kick off. Let's see how it goes. My name is Darius from People and Their Brilliance. And this is our first attempt at a podcast. Let's see how it goes. And we hope you like it. so we're gonna kick off with very light introductions, we know each other, you have been working together alongside each other for the last few months. And you want to just say your names and something about you just to kind of give people a sense of you.
Florence Bliss: Um, yeah. Hi, I'm Florence. I work as a Recruitment Administrator here at People and Their Brilliance. But I'm also part of the Kickstart Scheme. Working here since about April. So yeah, so about six months now. So yeah, yeah, that's really -
Darius: And what were you doing before you came?
Florence: I was job hunting, but because I finished my degree, so I did a degree in like geography. I did. I finished that in September last year. So 2020
Darius: So you're about six months.
Florence: Kind of looking
Darius: Yeah. Great. Thank you. Bri.
Briall Baker: Hi. My name is Bri. I'm 23 from Swansea, originally, and I've also in the recruitment team been here since February. And yeah, I'm actually past my kickstart scheme now. But yeah. I’m still here.
Darius: So you can carry on working for us past the scheme?
Bri: Yeah.
Darius: And how would you describe what you were doing before?
Bri: Um, yeah, job hunting for about seven months after moving to Brighton and in Swansea just had a couple of odd jobs.
Darius: Thank you. And Harry.
Harry McMullen: I just want to say I really liked how yours rhymed. You're like "Bri, 23, Swansea, originally". Yeah, my name is Harry, I'm 25. I started on the Kickstart Scheme, working for People and Their brilliance. And then at the end of my six months, I moved to a different role, which is just starting, and I'm really excited about it. And my background is I'm an actor. Yeah. And I'm interested in becoming a coach as well. So, I've taken the first steps to do that. So yeah, becoming a professional hat-wearer. I think.
Darius: What were you doing before this?
Harry: I was unemployed before this. Yeah, just right at the beginning of the pandemic, I went to New York City where my wife lives, who's an actress. I was kind of riding things out there for a while, and then came back. And yeah, the money ran out. And so I was looking for a job for a couple of months, did something like a startup for a month? And that had to let me go, just the nature of the business. And yeah, just the uncertainty, it was a thing that relied on people being able to meet and then there was a second lockdown, people couldn't meet anymore. So yeah, I know, it sounds quite not to go too heavy. But I was quite lost when, when I came into the first session with People and Their Brilliance. And I was like, Oh, God, I really want to do this with my life, at least for the short term. And that's, yeah, how this started.
Darius: Lovely. I haven't disclosed my age. I'm wondering if that's material. And those people are interested, I feel like I need to kind of put that on the table. I'm 49. 50 next year, maybe you didn't know that. I probably thought I was in my early 30s or something. So let's talk about the expectations for this session. Right? So we're gonna be quite informal, we're going to be real, and talking about what's really going on for you. And you're navigating these crazy times of finding a way figuring out your future to extent that's important possible. What would you say to people? You know, how would you describe me? Like for people listening? So again, I'm putting you on the spot a little bit, but yeah, what, what do you think would be good for people to know about my style approach? Yeah. Just curious. Now, what would you say?
Bri: I'd say you have quite a deep approach. Not really one for small talk, which is like a refreshing point of view. Yeah. Yeah. Just like to get deep into people's mindset and things like that.
Darius: Yeah, I can definitely take that. Absolutely. I actually find small talk hard. Or what am I supposed to say here? And is this important? Or because we're talking about it? So I'm thinking it might be but so that yeah, I'm actually not very good at it as well as not finding it sort of particularly satisfying. And much more comfortable and skilled and interested in what's really going on. What's the most important thing that we could talk about use that time for? So yeah, I think an accurate description. What else?
Florence: I think I think you're kind of similar to Bri I kind of agree. But I think also you're the kind of person that doesn't care about the what the why, in a way. So like not what's happening, but why is it going on? That's like, a good way I would describe you like looking more into it and kind of being more detailed about it and said more of a deep approach. No, that's how I've kind of explained it.
Darius: So digging into Okay, so that's on the surface, maybe. So what's behind that? And what's really going on?
Florence: Yeah, yeah, that's basically what I'm saying.
Darius: Great. I can take that too. Harry?
Harry: Yeah, I'd probably echo both of those. So to say something additional, I find doing sessions that you lead can be quite exhausting. In terms of feeling challenged, feeling provoked and feeling kind of stretched. So it's this combination, I find I'm feeling exhausted at the end of it, and also really kind of rewarded or it felt really rewarding. Like I was near the edge of what I was comfortable with. And then my edge got further away, like I grew as a result of it. Maybe not exactly in the moment, but I've noticed, yeah, that change happening over time. Yeah, and I think an important thing, if I was, someone had asked me "What's Darius like?" one thing I'd really want to make sure I told them is that it feels doing a session with you, or what you talk about sometimes can feel too good to be true. And I feel like I've spent six months doing a lot of these and being part of a lot of these with you in various capacities. And I'm naturally always looking for yes, it is too good to be true, like you've proven to be kind of fake, or I can see through it or whatever. And it hasn't happened yet. I don't think I'm now at the point where I don't think it will.
Darius: Thank you for that. So I appreciate that. And the instruction that I heard is, you know, when you're looking at this, this is a context actually of meditation, but you're looking for a teacher to kind of follow or kind of get instruction from, the instruction is to follow them for two years, to notice everything they're saying, everything they're doing, all their behavior, and then after two years, if you haven't found any gaps, and oh, yeah, they seem to be actually living in accordance with what they're talking about, then that would be okay, great. Now, I will put my sort of trust in that teacher. So we’ve got 18 months maybe to go. For more gaps to open up. There, of course, are gaps. I'm curious to know where they started with a "what do you think of me", because this is, you know, this is about you, right. And so I'm here wanting to know, how I can be of service. So I spent a long time as you know, trying to really understand mindsets, how they get created different kinds of behaviors, worked with, you know, 1000s of people in similar situations to yourself. So I feel really drawn to supporting you passionate about it. Have a sense is really needed at the moment. And I'm coming kind of really wanting to listen and hear a case. So what is going on what would be the most useful thing we can talk about for each of you. And of course, it's different. So that's what I'm going to sort of, yeah, sort of invite the territory. You've got time with me in this intimate setting, just asking the microphones and maybe a few people listening? What would be most helpful to talk about?
Bri: Personally, as I like, shared with you, before I had, you know, experience of going to uni and then dropping out quite early on, and my kind of thinking always was, I'll just try different things until I find what I'm passionate about. I'm happy to go back to uni or do whatever I need to do to kind of get to whatever point I want to be, but that was nearly four years ago, and I'm still not at a point where I know what I want to do or what I'm particularly passionate about. So yeah, personally, I feel like it would be good to kind of have that coaching or just a guiding hand. And because I think when I'm just thinking myself, I'm probably one track mind, but having someone else's perspective of knowing also what's out there in the market. That kind of thing.
Darius: Yeah. So you know, it's a it's a big topic. Yeah. And I know it's a little bit sensitive. So let's let's have a go with it. If it feels too much, you can say stop and all that, you know, it's always right. We're working with permission and how far you want to go with it. You know, I put myself in your shoes and I know a little bit of the back story of: you excel at school. I'm guessing you're one of the top students in the whole school. If not maybe the top right at the top. And you get into what's considered to be one of the top universities to get into, one of the hardest universities. And you don't find your place there. Somehow it just this is not fitting for me. And you make what I'm guessing is pretty... I don't know if it's an easy or difficult decision to say, look, I'm going to take myself out of it depending how painful it was or not, but you take the decision that you know what I'm withdrawing. And so what I'm with first of all, is just the connecting to the feeling of I'm imagining, feeling like, okay, everything's ahead of me. I've done what I supposed to do. I've excelled at school, going to other top universities, it's all going to work out. And then a few months later, oh, it's not. It sounds like you at that point, you've got a resilience and resilience of okay, look, I'll just regroup and find my way a different way. And we're now four years later, and kind of not flourishing.
Bri: Yeah
Darius: Languishing. This is gonna sound overly miserable, but no clear direction.
Bri: Yeah
Darius: No sense of real progression. And no particular way that looks like a suddenly gonna appear to get you out of it.
Bri: Yeah.
Darius: So you know that this might sound odd. But the first thing to do in my view would is to really know, okay, that's where I am. Right? Everything that I've been doing, hasn't worked.
Bri: Yeah.
Darius: And what that speaks to is, if I want a different outcome, I might need to radically change how I'm approaching this. Because I'm don't seem to have fallen into anything. The path hasn't appeared. And we got to say going around in circles that maybe not not fair, but nothing substantive is materializing. So how did how does that sound to you when I say okay, radically different approach might be needed?
Bri: Yeah, I can see that. I think I'm not really sure how I'd even begin to go about that. But yeah, definitely, I kind of only have one kind of view of how to do it was just just get a job, you know, see if I like it, and then try and progress in that industry. But yeah, obviously, it hasn't really worked out yet. Yeah, and then sometimes, you know, I tried to think, oh, maybe go back to uni and other things. But then I'd feel like it's just going in circles, like back to square one. Like, I don't want to waste the money. Don't want to waste the time on something I'm not 100% passionate about. But then I kind of think, is everyone passionate about what they do? And is passion something that is it just overrated. Something that you really need for a career? Or is it okay, just to not settled, but just be with something that is fine day to day?
Darius: Yeah, so what do you think?
Bri: I don't know, I’m still working that out. Like the job I'm in now I do enjoy. But I wouldn't say it's something I'm really passionate about. But I can see myself in something like this long term, because I quite like being able to separate work and life. And I think part of me thinks maybe if I was in something that was really passionate about or was like a hobby, that might ruin it a bit or blur the lines a bit. I like to have that separation.
Darius: And when you are at your most sort of engaged fired up, what would you be doing? When might I see Bri kind of in full flow?
Bri: Gosh, I'm not sure. I think that's something I'm still trying to figure out. But yeah.
Darius: Were you passionate about studying when you were at school?
Bri: Not sure if I was passionate like I did enjoy it, and I was good at it. And yeah, I liked it. But I don't think there was real passion there. I think it was more what was expected of me to do and I liked it. So I was like, Oh great. Yeah, and I can do it.
Darius: So let me bring in Flo and Harry. What thoughts are you having listening to Bri talking and hearing her experience?
Florence: I mean, like I've known, I've known you for a while now. Consider us friends. I feel like we've spoken about stuff like this before. We were very similar in this aspect. I think personally, like, I don't know, we've spoken about it and we kind of agree on a lot of things. So I get where you're coming from completely like personally, I consider myself a very unambitious person. I don't see myself as having any ambition really. But like it's just I don't know if that's just the kind of person I am or you know, that's something I can change. I don't really know. And it's definitely something that I completely get where you're coming from because Now I have no idea what I'm really doing. To be honest. I don't know if I ever will. I don't know if you're supposed to know what you're doing. Yeah.
Darius: Well, I'm guessing a lot of people in a very similar situation, both one feeling like, oh, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm wondering, Am I will I ever am I supposed to does anyone? So I think it's a great question to be in. Harry, anything coming up for you?
Harry: The first thing I think the main thought in my mind at the moment is that maybe Bri needs to be a little bit further away from the microphone. To speak with integrity, that was the main thing on my mind.
Darius: Okay.
Harry: Yeah. And also, I'm interested in it because I'm in a, I'm in a different position where I have great clarity about what I'm passionate about. And I know when Harry is in full flow, and I don't get to do it very much of the time, which is a different position. And so I'm thinking, Oh, is there potentially like us sharing those experiences with each other and going? Oh, like your situation is different to mine, mine’s different to yours, I wonder what we can learn from each other?
Bri: Yeah.
Harry: Yeah.
Darius: So to go to this is where we get deeper into, okay, so what's really going on? So I see a number of possibilities. So one possibility is that, I guess it's for both of you, Florence, and Bri, that you've never had an experience in your life where you've been in full flow. Right? So that's one possibility, I think is actually unlikely. Right? But it's possible. So the other possibilities, you've had them, and either not realized it, or forgotten about them. Right. And it would be easy to be disconnected from that sense. Because it's been challenging times and periods. And you know, just kind of maybe what's present now is so strong, it feels hard to get connected to that sense of energy. And oh, yeah, that that was me. I'm, you know, from, from my perspective, two overriding principles up to you how you live your life, right? You're the one that has to live it, I don't, I don't have to live your life. And so you can choose how you want to live? What am I claiming that by getting a sense of connection, and I don't use the word passion a lot, actually. So for me, you hear me to work, what's important to you? Right, which connects to values, and values were to what values is, what do you what do you value? What is actually important to you? Now, if you're gonna claim and and also you are like, Oh, nothing that you know, I don't have any preference, nothing's more important to me than anything else. I'm gonna say that's not true. I think you have things which are important to you, that might take some uncovering and inquiring into, and I'm gonna say that you have things that are important to you. And that becomes, that becomes a start point, then for investigation of oh, so if that's important to me, how do I build that into my life, including my work? Because if I could connect to that, it becomes a source of strength, the source of power, source of energy, source of enthusiasm, maybe some passion and if you want to bring that word in, but I don't use or what are you passionate about very much, it's I'm much more interested in what's important, because I think it's naturally true, that you have things which are important to you. And then when you connect to them, you become naturally strong. Does that make sense?
Florence: Yeah, it does make sense, I think. I think I think the thing is, for me is that like, in the past, especially like, you know, I think I certainly like especially when I was at school, I really enjoyed learning. But then I hated the education part of it. I hated the teaching, I hate what I like the teaching but hate the assessments, I hated everything. And it's kind of like, even if I did like learning more, like, that wouldn't be kind of a thing that I could ever be passionate about. Because it's, you know, it's so difficult. I would love to go and like, learn more, I think, but I think like to be honest, I'm kind of done with it now, just purely because of my experience I've had, like, and I know that there are different ways to learn and stuff like that. But I think for me now, it's kind of like, done, like, I couldn't go back to like doing something like that again. I know you're saying about uni and stuff, but yeah. But no.
Darius: So do you want to look at that?
Florence: Yeah I don't mind.
Darius: Because yeah, that's quite a closed position that you're presenting, ya know, and it's, it's closed around something that sounds important to you or that you've got some love around?
Florence: Yeah, no, definitely. But I think there's a massive difference between learning and like, you know, like School University. Huge differential behind it. Like, and yeah, so I think I am closed off to it because I know that
Darius: You're closed off to learning?
Florence: Not learning. I think we all learn all the time, right? Like, but like I'm closed off to going back to a place where, you know, you're studying and stuff like that.
Darius: Great. Right? So I'm not talking about that then. I mean, as I was hearing, I'm closed off some learning. It sounds like I just the idea of going back to school or university is not very enticing isn't it?
Florence: No.
Darius: Not for me, either. So, coming back to the values and what's important. One of the things I see that people miss assess themselves is that they imagine in a little bit like Harry's described like, oh, it's really clear to me, right? And then you sort of maybe just do a little bit of self reflect like, oh, I can't really tell what's important to me. So maybe nothing really is, rather than it being so with you all the time, you're just not aware of it. And it takes a bit of work to kind of distinguish, oh, that's what it is. And because it's so natural, we don't we don't value the thing, which actually is really important. Because it's just there all the time. But it's not the same for everyone. So, I mean, as an example, I would, I would describe you both as caring people. I would say it's important to you both not to be hurting other people and harming other people. Is that I don't know. For us, you will not survive. So please don't get me wrong. But the accurate isn't. This is the whole point is that we're all different. Yeah. So you're gone. How are you reacting to that? No, yeah, good. Yeah, no, it definitely feels to suck to some extent. I agree. Definitely. Yeah. And so we could describe that as a value. And you might think, well, everyone's the same as that. But they're not. For some people. I'm not saying they don't care about people at all, but it's not high on their list. Or they very easily put something ahead of it. Where my sense is, both of you not not include you're excluding that is high up your list.
Bri: Yeah.
Florence: No, I get that. But then it's how do you communicate that through, then figuring out like, that seems like was what you kind of guide yourself from then?
Darius: Okay, so can you think of a job? Where it wouldn't be important if you cared about people or not? It wouldn't be it wouldn't be important. Yeah, it'd be low down the list.
Florence: Oh, yeah. Banker
Darius: Maybe some prejudice coming in. But what else?
Bri: General CEOs, maybe?
Darius: Oh, my gosh, we need a whole separate session. I don't know it's super basic, like entry level thing of an entry level job. That wouldn't be so important.
Bri: Like computers or something.
Darius: Okay, great. So I'm doing some software programming. Maybe I'm not seeing people that much. That's kind of imagine a scenario. I'm loving the computers among the code. I'm good at it. You know, whether I really caring about people, it doesn't seem so, so critical for that role, let's say. So, if that was important to you, then that role might, you know, you might not want to design your life in a way that that role was central. Right. Versus we could try and let's think of a role now where you would say, Yeah, that does seem like a core part of it, or an important part of it. What role would come to mind?
Bri: Like healthcare industry?
Darius: Okay, that could be a classic one. What else?
Florence: Suppose like teaching?
Darius: Yeah. What else?
Florence: Working in the charity sector?
Darius: Yeah, I would challenge that actually. Because there's plenty of charities that -
Florence: Oh, yeah. But like, you know, the ones that do, broad example.
Darius: So maybe homeless, homelessness comes to mind. So it's trying to work with homelessness. Okay.
Bri: Like what we're doing now, scheme where it's helping specific helping people get into work.
Darius: Yeah. Could be. Harry, anything coming up for you?
Harry: Yeah. The service industry like restaurants, feeding people and also giving them an experience. It's, yeah, it's the business version of inviting someone into your home and giving them a meal.
Darius: Yeah, lovely. Also, coaching came to mind for me as well, like you might even care about people that could be something that would be an important aspect. So I think and some of the jobs you mentioned, many, many of them You would do them differently if you cared about people than if you didn't. Or if you really, you could still do the job, but it'd be might have a different impact. But you could be a waiter, which was not really cares, banging the plates down. I'm sure we've all had that experience where you really don't want to be here. Or you don't really care about the experience I'm having or, versus someone who's really, you know, attentive and you can feel it. So it shows up. So that's my response to you say, Well, I don't know what what would I do once I found out what's important, I can begin to design and look at opportunities through that lens of oh, I going to have more of that in my life or less of that in my life as a result of this direction I'm going in? And am I going to develop those capacities in myself? Am I going to be surrounded by people who also value this? Or develop that to a higher level that I want to become like? And I think that's a great way to think about, Do I take this role? Like, do I want to become like the people that are already here? Do I want more qualities like that? Because you pick them up? Right? Just by osmosis being in the same room and around each other? You pick up that kind of stuff? So does that is that doing anything for you or not?
Florence: You know, is I suppose my question would be that, you know, say your passion, say you find a job that you know, relates to your values, as you're saying, like, then that connects to passion. And you still got the kind of practicality of tasks or the job. Yeah, job like is within so like, you know, you know, if you want to go so maybe become a teacher, there is the practicality of like, maybe the kind of hours you do or not for that person that said, how do you communicate that, like, you know, it's great having, like, you know, catered to values and interests, but then there's the kind of practicality of the actual job itself.
Darius: So, so I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying. But let me let me start with the responsibility. Yeah. So if we start with this idea of, okay, I'm going to design my life, like, what if I was designing my life? How would I want it should be? And so I'm saying, Okay, so a cornerstone of that is figuring out what's important to me. So, and genuinely important, right. So if you fake that bid, then the whole thing is not going to work out. So then say it's important to me to be very professional and caring about people educating people want to teach people. And somehow it's also important to me to work three days a week, right or not to be taking my work home. Right. So now we've got some helpful constraints, right? Because there's 10,000 jobs out there. We've now got some constraints around. So that's what great looks like, and what opportunities are out there or that I can create, that would meet what's important to me. Maybe I'll do some tutoring. And I can set my own hours. Maybe I'll design a online program. So I can do some homeschooling for people that want. Or maybe I can do some part time teaching. Or we could be a supply teacher, or whatever it may be. But I've got some ways to look at how can I fit? What if those things are important to me? How do I then come to those in a way that matches my aspirations?
Florence: So that integration basically.
Darius: Yeah. Does that sound too straightforward?
Florence: No, I think I think it sounds simple. But I think it's putting into practice, really, I think to be honest, I think taking it and then doing it yourself. I don't know.
Bri: Yeah. Like it works well in this scenario, but I'm just thinking about, obviously, go in and try and out with other things.
Darius: Yeah. So it starts with what's important, right? And if you try and do it without really having done that work, then it doesn't work. And it doesn't work from two perspectives. One, you don't get a very compelling, like, oh, gosh, that that if I could find an opportunity like that, that would be great. Right? It's haven't really connected to your, your inner sense of strength and power and interest. And then when you apply to the job, people pick it up like, oh, this seems like it's a kind of 50/50 for you where you don't really care or it's not that important to you. Versus you show up for a job where you it's really important to you, you talk differently, you walk differently, speak differently, the energy, the enthusiasm comes across, you immediately put yourself in the top few percent of candidates by coming from that place, because most people haven't done the work. Like, oh, just I'll just take a job and then I'll see if I like it, maybe. And that's not the most compelling way that I know. Because it's exhausting applying for jobs, isn't it? Yeah. And it's pretty dispiriting in all the soul searching all the way here. What am I doing? No one's even replying to me and then am I any good and I questioned my value and to get this downward spiral, versus, okay, here's what here's what is important to me. Remember, we talk about these three things, what are your values, your brilliance, it says what you're great at what you've got to offer. So there's those know, something might be important to you. But you might not have a lot of skill around it yet. Right? There might be some other things that you can connect to it. But you know, so the brilliance is a separate thing. What have I got to offer? And then maybe this was in the integration with purpose. How do I put that all together? Where do I want to use? what's important and what I'm brilliant at? And what's the opportunity? But it starts with what's important to me. Otherwise, why bother? Why create a life that that isn't important to you? To me? That doesn't sound very exciting. Or enticing. But it sounds like that's what you're all sort of into?
Florence: I'm not into it at all. It's like one of my biggest fears. But it's like coming out of that. I don't want that. But it just seems like was what everyone seems to roll in. I don't know. Like, you know, I think it's, you know, like, I always thought that it was very hard to find something like the dream job in a way.
Darius: Because I think dream job is really unhelpful. What does that even mean? Yeah, that's like, Oh, that was my fantasy job. Well, I want to be a I don't know what. Yeah, that's not connected to anything, either. Other than a fantasy. And you just speaking you just now is the most passionate, I've heard you. Like, I don't want to live a life, which is not important to me.
Florence: Yeah.
Darius: That felt like we touched something.
Florence: Yeah. Like, yeah.
Darius: Do you feel that?
Florence: Yeah. It's just like, I'm constantly worried that I'm the days are just passing.
Darius: They are! And you're living the life that you don't want!
Florence: Yeah.
Darius: I mean, it's not totally true. But that's, that's what's on the table.
Florence: Yeah, no, definitely. I get where you're coming from. I think I just sometimes need to get moving a bit. And I struggle to do that. Yeah.
Darius: Because it's, it's work. Yeah, it's not easy work. It's not even clear. Like, oh, if I just spend half an hour on this, I'll get to here. Right. So we just avoid it. And then we get left with what we've got, which is a life that's passing us by the days are passing. You're not spring chickens anymore.
Bri: I think it's also like, I don't know if it's a generational thing. But a lot of us if we had the choice, we wouldn't want to work. Yeah.
Darius: Okay, tell me. What? It's, I mean, you heard surprise, right? I wouldn't go so far as shocked. But I'm curious. Tell me.
Florence: Oh,I don't know. My motto is, you know, don't live to work. You work to live like, you know, you. I'd like to know like day to day, week to week you know, you go in like you can still - like not saying you can't not enjoy that day. But then it's like, you know, you, you know, you're looking forward to your day off or you're doing something and you're kind of, you know, and you kind of got that bit more of, I don't know, freedom, I guess but I don't know what it is. It's just not you know, I've never really been looking forward to like, like, maybe even having like a career or anything I know that but I'd always knew I'd have a job and I'd go to a job. But it wouldn't be something that was definitely like, no passionate to get involved. Look into and stuff like that.
Bri: More like we just have to.
Florence: Yeah.
Bri: Like we live in a society where you have to.
Florence: Yeah.
Darius: I want to hear more from Bri. And I'm gonna react.
Bri: Small, just Yeah, I don't know, it feels like you have to do what you have to do. And really, when what I think I enjoy is things like, oh, spending time with friends and family. And you know, maybe going out doing activities like that. Oh, things like I'm into meditation, because I'm religious and things like that. None of those are really like, oh, going to an office every day and doing work. That's just more. I have to do that.
Darius: Huh. Yeah. So I'm really struck by the separation that you're seeing between work is this thing I basically I don't want to do I wouldn't choose to do. It's getting in the way of my life. Right. That sounds like you're both holding it. Yeah. What comes up for you? Is that Harry? I'm curious.
Harry: Yeah, it's a mindset I'm familiar with. I think in my head, I feel like there's a separation between work and my job. And I can connect with the idea of, maybe not this job, but I can connect with the idea of being in a job and thinking, if I had a choice, I wouldn't do my job. But I, if I had a choice to do the work that I want to do, I would do the work that I want to do. Because, yeah, I feel like that when I've had times where I've felt kind of adrift in purpose, listen, maybe use the word depression at times, it's felt connected to what am I doing with my life? I'm spending, I'm investing a lot of my time and my PlayStation. And it's not paying me back anything at all. If it was money, it would be the worst investment that - you know if that's, if that's, you know, for all finance people listening who were offended by the banker comment.
Darius: It's a whole separate episode.
Harry: Yeah, so that's, that's right, because I was in a position for the very first time in my life during the first lockdown where my grandmother sold her house. And she gave us some money. And so when lockdown happened, and I got furloughed, and that lasted a month, and I had nothing from anyone, but I had this money from my Nan. And I was like, I've been I've spent a lot of my life talking about privileged people like them over there. And now I'm massively privileged. I don't have to work. There is no work I can't I can't work as an actor, I've been let go from my normal job because they can't afford to furlough us or anything. And this is going to be great. I was miserable. So much so that subsequent lockdowns where I couldn't go out couldn't see people, but I could do my job, even if it wasn't the job that I would want to do for the rest of my life. And I felt way happier. And I know a lot of people who, in one breath will now - in a way that they should, in a way that they haven't previously felt very empowered to - rail against things that are powers that are making their life more difficult. And I think that's great. And I like to celebrate that. And I do that myself, we're all more aware of systemic pressures and oppression and things that are in the way. And also in another breath that like, I'm depressed. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. And I think, yeah, so I think that when I hear like, most of us wouldn't choose to work, I think I think probably most of us would choose to work because the alternative is very depressing. What am I doing in life, if I'm not working towards something? And that's different to being in a job in an office that I don't like.
Darius: So one way of thinking about it, I do think this is a this is a genuine possibility is that within the relatively near future, that we don't have to work? Right, that there's that we the technology gets figured out that we get enough food, enough shelter, there's enough power that you don't need to work. And I think it's going to be incredibly challenging time of Okay, so what are you going to do with your time? That is satisfying? And my, my suggestion is that, oh, we're gonna spend some time with family and friends isn't going to do it.
Florence: I think for me, it's like, I completely agree with what you're saying, like, both you and Harry, like completely agree. Like, I remember when I was, you know, when it was, like, you know, we're locked down, didn't have a job, and I wasn't leaving my room. Like, it was very difficult. I struggled to keep to a routine, like I struggled to do stuff anyway, with a routine. And I get that completely. I just think that like, I completely understand that I don't think I would never not, like have a job because I do need that routine. I do need that time. But I think it's just it's so difficult to I think it's it's so amazing when you find something, as you said that you probably value and you're passionate about, and then you find that job, but because I haven't maybe like seen that possibility yet. And that's why it's so difficult for me to think that. I know, it's just like, constantly, as I said, like the days of passing the hours passing. And it's like, the idea that like, you know, I spent five, you know, if working full time I spent five days of the week in somewhere, spend most of the hours you go home, and then you know you're doing other tasks like that. You just have to do. And it's just like that just seems like time just going by like and you know, it's kind of crazy to me and I don't know, I think it's fun, I think.
Darius: Yeah. So what what honoring you is the the sense that you have of time is passing. And I'm not using it in the way that I would like or Well, there's a lovely, lovely quote from the Buddha, "the days and nights are relentlessly passing. How well are you spending your time?" I hear you speak I hear you. I hear that quote like I'm feeling this. I don't like the feeling of it. And yet another day's gone. And nothing's really any different. And you don't really see any prospect of anything being different. So I hear this kind of slight paradox. If I'm in something I really don't want to be in, it's like my biggest fear and I can feel I'm in it. And I don't really, it's not you don't want to get out of it. But it's kind of, it's almost like a resignation of why a minute. Yeah, I don't know how to get out of it. And then you tell me that I don't know how accurate that is or not it? That's what I hear.
Florence: Definitely. I think I think yeah, and it's also just this idea that, like, I didn't know, sometimes, you know, I have this kind of viewpoint on a job, they'll be like, the days repeating itself all the time. And it's just the same thing happening every single day, just on repeat,
Darius: It's a really negative frame of mind.
Florence: Yeah, I get that. Like, because I, I do think I have a negative frame of mind. But like, you know, I sometimes find it difficult to get out of that sometimes at the minute. Yeah. But, you know, I do understand where you're coming from, but like, maybe I've seen it more as realism.
Darius: This sounds a little bit, you know, Harry described where he was, which was in a, I don't know what the right quite the right words are, but in a certain certain state of being about how work was or what, whether life was fair or not, and so on. And I hear some equivalents to where you are now. Which is, basically, there aren't any good jobs out there, I'm never going to find one. And with that mindset, and belief, guess what you won't, we won't, your brain will make that come true. Even when it's right in front of you, you're the one recognize it bother, I'm sure that's just as you know, you're just dismiss it. And I think getting rid of this notion of, oh, I need a job, forget it. You know, just like, if you take that off, stop trying to get a job. Imagine you don't need to work, what would be fulfilling for you to engage yourself in. That's not watching another Netflix series, right? Or going, you know, whatever, you don't know what you're doing whatever, the kind of free time active, you know, just like, because I'm gonna sit, that's not gonna, you know, maybe you've had that experience you've had the place that you just like, you want you to start watching something we even know when you start watching it. And this isn't gonna be great no matter something, right? And it's gonna get the next to the next hour. And then if it's a series, you watch another one he watched you stop binging on five hours, and it's not very satisfying. This is my experience of it. So what what would you can you imagine what you would spend your time on? That would be satisfying. You don't have to work. What would you spend your time on? That would be satisfying.
Bri: I mean, this might be a bit. But like, I am a Buddhist, meditation and lovely. That's kind of my goal in life is in a religious aspect. So sometimes when I get deep into that, I think, oh, what's all that like work and life? Yeah, it feels like it doesn't serve me.
Darius: Great. And so something's important to you. Yeah. You could prioritize that. Yeah. So What score would you give yourself at the moment? In terms of given it's important to you? How much of a priority actually is it? If we looked at your life? What school do you attend?
Bri: Probably like? Three, it's gone down since working, because that's great. It's hard to make time for me.
Darius: It's just not true. It's hard. But we've got to catch ourselves in these stories. And so if it was an eight, or nine or a 10, what would you be doing? What would your life be looking like if you were living at an eight, nine or 10?
Bri: Well, obviously, I'm making it a priority every day being the most important thing, probably spending longer on it, and doing whatever I need to do outside of that to support. Yeah, support doing that all the time.
Darius: Right mind. So that sounds like a very powerful place to start as meaningful to you. is accurate? Yeah. Yeah. So in terms of designing your life, you've got you've got a big rock of okay, I want to put that in first. Yeah. And then you could look at, okay, what kinds of work would enhance support, develop the kinds of qualities that I'm looking to develop through my meditation practice or this spiritual development? Does that shift anything?
Bri: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I just need to think about it more because I've always thought about it in the way of like, I'll just do that. Because only you know, need to work to survive. So I'll just do that. So then I can focus on everything else I need to do. Yeah, if there was something out there, which Go alongside it and enhance it. That'd be great.
Darius: Yeah. And so it's this piece around: what instruction are we giving to our brain? What are we asking our brains to be on the lookout for? Because there's a lovely phrase that "your eyes will see, and your ears will hear what your brain is looking for". But what I'm sorry, picking on both of you a little, you're both giving instructions to your brain, which means you are not going to find anything. Or you're really limiting the possibility of finding anything satisfying because you just don't even believe it's possible. That sounds like work isn't the way I'd rather not do if I didn't have to. Versus a frame of wow, this could be yes, there's loads of jobs, which aren't great. Not gonna be good fit, like, of course. And the possibility that there are opportunities and people that you could work with and four, that would really be enhancing, aligned, would have you be energized? Would have you be able to do the things that you value around them. And they would augment it and enhance it, rather than being at a cost. Can you can you does that feel accessible at all for either of you?
Florence: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think so. I think, to be honest, yeah, I get what you're saying. Like, it's definitely I just think that it sometimes takes time. I think that, like, I would love to just kind of, you know, have like a positive outlook. Unfortunately, my brain can't do that. I've tried to do it, I can, I've gone to like positive slots for a day. kind of gone back into that state. I think, you know, it's something that like, I want personally, I can only speak for myself, I need to work on like, for a long time. But like, you know, because I just can't change it like that quickly. I can see where you're coming from definitely. And it's not like, not understanding or not agreeing. But I think sometimes mindset is quite a difficult thing to change. Like,
Darius: Yeah, so can we explore that a little bit?
Florence: Yeah, sure.
Darius: So how long would you say you've been working on it?
Florence: Not that long? Well, it's to do with like, because obviously I suffer from depression. So I think personally, I probably have a negative mindset, she's that. And that probably affects it, you know.
Darius: Well, you can end up in kind of a loop, right? Just like I'm seeing the world negatively, then it appears negative. Because partly because of how I'm, you know, my perception is, which then reinforces the view that oh, there's nothing really much to look forward to. And that can be, you know, a place to get stuck, right? Or kind of, it's hard. It is hard to get out of that gunners loop. Right? Because we've been perceiving the world to some extent, based on what we're looking for. So how would you like to be feeling?
Florence: Kind of like, I mean, I only see myself as quite cheery person. Like, I would quite like to just be that kind of positive person. Like, especially like, I used to be when I was like a kid like, yeah, that like, you know, kind of like person like that, I suppose.
Darius: And when does when does that side of you show up? When, um,
Florence: I suppose. My friends really? I just like, having fun. Being with people, I like dopamine. So yeah.
Darius: And have you experienced that recently?
Florence: Yeah, well, I experienced it whenever I'm with my friends.
Darius: Okay. Give me an example of what you'd be doing.
Florence: We wouldn’t have to be doing anything.
Darius: Okay. So just just with them. So what's what's happening? That's, that's having you be in that state.
Florence: I suppose it's like distracting as well. Like, you're just kind of, I don't really know how to describe it. Like, it's just how I feel at that time. But, yeah, just doing something fun that you don't have to necessarily think you're just people that you enjoy spending time with.
Darius: Okay. And when you start thinking about work, what happens?
Florence: Well, it's different at this job because I have friends around me as well. As I said.
Darius: Did you have friends before you started?
Florence: Yeah.
Darius: Did you have friends when you arrived here? Were any people around you friends?
Florence: Yeah, no. Yeah, I did have friends.
Darius: Who were working here?
Florence: Working here? No, no, no.
Darius: So you've made those relationships you've created.
Florence: Yeah, yes.
Darius: Awesome.
Florence: I think it's funny because I'm talking about Bri!
Darius: She's your BFF? So let's talk about this one. Yeah. So there's, there's work you're doing here, which is, at least in my view meaningful, right? You're making a difference to people at a critical time realize you've got at least one person that you're friends with. Yeah. So how's that? How is the experience?
Florence: Yeah. Well, I mean, to be honest, when I signed up for this job, it's because I liked the sound of what you were doing. I liked the idea of, you know, possibly, you know, even like, because I was in that position myself, I thought, Oh, this is a good opportunity to kind of, you know, at least put, like, you know, some skills that I might have, or like, the time I might have into doing something which could, like, make something else a little bit better for someone else?
Darius: And do you feel like you've done that?
Florence: I feel like I have done it, but I don't think I've done it. As much as I would like to. Yeah, I thought I can't, I always wished I could have done more. Ya know? Like,
Darius: Me, too.
Florence: So. But yeah, so I’m happy with what I've done, but I do kind of have that “oh” that I could have maybe done more like that.
Darius: And what have you seen because you've come into contact with quite a few people. You know, who sort of study where you were? What have you what have you seen from the human condition, if I can put it that way? Coming into contact with all those people?
Florence: I don't know. Like, it's, it's just like, you know, like, you have, like, personally, like, it's like seeing like, even like just one story of like, you know, a candidate's gone to a role. And then they're, like, you know, like, the person who's employed them are saying like that, that like, absolutely great. You know, they're, like, fantastic. And it's just, it's nice to hear. Like that, you know, it's kind of like, you know, you kind of like even though I'm just doing like the admin behind it, like, it's part of like, what we all do, I suppose, you know, and, you know, they come out, like, you know, it's like even someone leaving, he's just come out of a better like, kind of no mix of skills and like stuff that they can show to other people that then they can like, move forward with. I think that's nice. Yeah. Yeah, like, just giving someone that kind of no job, day to date, I can do that. And like, learn from that I just do.
Darius: Good. So here's my because I'm constantly talking about this, this is what we're here for. I want to offer an action between now and next time. I'm saying offer feels a little stronger than that. But request between now and next time, which is to speak to five people who you've supported into a role and just hear, hear what it means to them. Have a conversation with them? To really connect with okay, what is the impact I'm having? To make because you're hearing some anecdotes, but actually, you know, really remembering or not remembering realizing. How does that sound?
Florence: Yeah, sounds good.
Bri: Yeah, definitely think like hearing Flo speak. Then I was like, at the start of the placement, I always said, like, I'm passionate about helping people and helping people who are in the same position as me. And I feel like I've lost that over the months.
Darius: Yeah.
Bri: Just gotten wrapped up in the actual tasks of the job and maybe the negative aspects that come
Darius: Lots of frustrations.
Bri: Yeah. Exactly.
Darius: And disappointments. And yeah, so great. So if you're both up for doing that, between now and next time, which means next week. I know you've got a couple of days off anyway. So but yeah, so this is a priority then. And then let's let's go from there because I'd love to hear, what are you hearing in people's voices? What are you learning? What are you seeing about the impact you've had? Once again, noticing what happens inside you when you hear people talking about it? Let me know obviously it doesn’t have to be success stories, but just noticing you know, just how was it to hear. okay, so anything else occurring for anyone before we close this one? How's the conversation been?
Bri: Yeah, good. I was quite nervous about this fun butyYeah, it's just a conversation that flowed well and yeah, no. It's made me like realize a lot of things.
Florence: Yeah, I think I think no, like I agree like so like, I feel like maybe actually, like, even what I was thinking wasn't necessarily like always making sense. And it doesn't actually make a lot of sense. But like, for some reason, it's where I'm going. It's like being conscious, but I suppose, you know.
Darius: Thank you for talking about it and being open to experience. But you know, that whole process of self examination, it's not necessarily comfortable. And we get to see all the, what I've seen as I'm doing that, like to start understanding that I'm saying the opposite. And that doesn't have it just doesn't make any sense. I think that's true for most people, once we start I mean, like when I started looking at all, but I'm saying this is really important that I'm not doing anything about it, but then I'm doing something, but I'm saying I want to but then I can't. It's like, let's unravel that and really get to okay, how do I act from a place of what's important? How about for you, Harry?
Harry: Yeah, the main thing I was just kind of astounded by like, how open both of you were. I was like, wow, it's like it was almost - from my, from my hearing of it there was almost no resistance as well. It's okay, we're in and we've just been in the whole time. Almost to the point where I wouldn't want to underestimate the value of you doing that. That's really brave.
Darius: Yeah, thank you. So drink some water. Honestly, these are intense, you know, even though we've kind of been laughing and joking, there's intensity here. And then I'd love to pick up with you again, after. We'd love to hear those calls. And let's see if something emerges in any reflections from this conversation. Okay. All right. That wraps us up for our first one. I hope you enjoy it doesn't sound like the right word. Maybe you found it stimulating. Maybe you recognize yourself in some of what was being said. I did. So let's see where the journey takes us and see you next time. Thank you.
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