#9. Challenging the Status Quo - Karin Tenelius
“If we had 100 million, what would we do? Exactly what we do now…”
CEO of Tufflederskarptraning and author of Coaching Jobseekers, Karin Tenelius, is an expert in creating work places built on employee power. In this episode she and Darius discuss the flaws in conventional working weeks, how covid has changed the way that businesses operate, and a vision for how day-to-day working could be. Karin also explains being “allergic to meetings that aren’t empowering” and what happens when your work is rooted in your calling.
Listen to full episode :
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We packed a lot into a short period of time this episode, so here are some links to various resources for different themes. On the idea of having a job that relates to your life’s mission, you can listen to our first podcast episode on Values here, and read our blog post here. On changing the way you or your team works for the better, you can read a blog post from Karin on reinvention here.
Tuff Leadership Training, the company Karin founded, delivers self-management and coaching courses which you can enroll in here.
Karin Tenelius is a pioneer in coaching jobseekers, entrepreneurship and leadership training. In addition to founding Tuff and her decades of experience working all over the world, she is the author of two books: Coaching Jobseekers and Moose Heads on the Table: Stories about self-managing organisations from Sweden (co-author Lisa Gill.) You can find her on Twitter @ktenelius.
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Darius Norell
Welcome to this episode of What's your work, I am joined by Karin Tenelius, founder of Tuff Leadership Training , which some of you may be familiar with some of you not. Really looking forward to our conversation, welcome to What's your work? How would you like to introduce yourself?
Karin Tenelius
Well, yes, I build companies. I'm an entrepreneur, and I am somebody who tries theories in practice. So why the company is called Tuff Leadership Training is because it's training. It is not about passing over knowledge. So I am somebody who likes to challenge our current, how we operate, and our paradigm.
Darius Norell
I'm an already I'm excited. I know, we've been done some work together the previous year as well. There's lots for us to get into about the world of work and ways of working. Let's start with that energy to challenge the current status quo. What can you say about that, about where that comes from? Or kind of what's what's in that for you?
Karin Tenelius
Yeah, if we just talk about how we work in our own workplaces, it's very old fashioned and outdated. And it came from that a 100 plus years ago, with managers managing and it was relevant then. It's not relevant now. Because people are much more educated and so on. So we need to find new ways of working. And we should have done that long, long ago. But it's hard, because we think this is the only way that things could work. And another thing about how we work is also the hours we work 40 hours a week, at least in Sweden. Many, many people work way more than that, for some reason. And our efficiency has increased incredibly, but we don't alter things at all. So there's so much to look at and disrupt,
Darius Norell
For sure. One of the thoughts I keep coming back to is given all the progress in technology in education and learning, and we seem to, at least at one level, seem to be quite far ahead of where we were 50 years ago. And yet, the benefits of that don't seem to have happened. We seem to be working as hard and our workplaces don't seem to be particularly happier or more enjoyable. And it's, it's, as you know, from the work we've been doing together, we are doing a lot of work with young people coming into the workplace. And it doesn't look like a very exciting prospect at the moment coming into work thinking "Well, I'm not gonna get paid particularly brilliantly. I'm going to be working all these hours in dynamics that maybe aren't that fulfilling". So I can really resonate with with a lot of the different ways people are showing up that are not that engaged or excited or kind of bought into this world of work as we currently have it.
Karin Tenelius
Yeah, I remember there was this really exciting TV programme in Sweden. I think it's more than 25 years ago, now and it was called 'live to work' or 'work to live'. And there was this researcher that stated that we could assume that we should work four hours a week because all of the progress in technology but nothing has happened since then, either. So it's not it's I think it's not until we have to change, we change and the Corona actually did some good work. I am always also puzzled by their traffic queues, that people start to work exactly the same time and sit in queues for hours. And also, you know, this mindset when people come in a bit more late than you should, or that they should, that people make remarks of it like, do you bring the evening paper, and so on. And of course, it has its grip sort of says it's going to be interesting to see what we can keep from this Corona time when, when nobody knows when people start work in the morning. Yeah, and we don't have to travel. And in Sweden, at least most companies have agreed to let people work three days in office and two days at home. And some very brave organisation have have let it free.
Darius Norell
Yeah. So it's very much what we're in is organisations trying to work out how to navigate this new reality and experience of people finding, for some people at least finding some real benefits from having that freedom and working from home. And they've got a setup, which allows that other people, it doesn't work. So well. I had lots of commentary about, well, if you're sort of more junior, and you're working from home, are you going to get all the learning and contact and other aspects of coming into work? So I think it's, it's really challenging for organisations to know what to do. So a comment from another CEO, which I think I've mentioned to you before, they're saying, oh, every time we see our lead competitor, say, you've got to come back to the office, recruiting team, contact their people, and we get a whole bunch of hires of really talented people who don't want to come back into the office. And so finding that, right, and if it's balanced rhythm way of working. If you're shifting from fundamentally, as a manager, I need to know what you're doing. And my job is to make you do it. And if you're not here on time, then that's a problem. Too much, freer, looser, that's a big shift.
Karin Tenelius
Yes. And that is where self organising comes in. Because it's much more of what do we want to accomplish instead of monitoring exactly the hours of accomplishing that? Giving people accountability, but also building support, but not maybe in the managers, but support, that it's much more wide and larger, when you can have the support of colleagues, the team, etc. And I think there are so many different factors in this. It's also when I started to coach unemployed people in the 90s, I thought it was important for people to find what they really like to do, and what they feel passionate for. Because then they learn so much quicker if they are in the right place. And, and that by then it was sort of laughed at because work is supposed to be boring. That's why you get paid. And also, people had that notion, right? You know, it should be boring, it's work. And that has shifted quite a lot over the years, at least, but not to the extent that you really take it seriously. So having a workplace work in a hierarchical way or self organised way. People need to have the right work and be at the right place, much more than just fill in a function.
Darius Norell
So if you've set up your organisation in a way that people are just in a role without really being committed to it in any deeper way, then there's that work to do as well. Right? Is that what you're saying?
Karin Tenelius
Yeah. Yes, to help people reflect on okay, what am I doing here rather than just turning up and getting to the ground principle of self organising is to put the task or the business responsibility, the whole business responsibility within the people that are going to provide and deliver and they find solutions. They create the structures, they take responsibility. And, and then the problem is that they engage too much. So you have to stop them from work, right? Rather than opposite.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Let's talk about that from because I think that's something that, personally, I've been I've been really seeing in myself. And I'd love to love to hear your experience and learn from you. And I think many people will be in a similar situation of when those work boundaries got eroded when we were all working from home because we had to. I met with someone and one of the groups I was talking about saying, Oh, we're not working from home, we're living at work, right? So it's just, it's just when the days got extended, people weren't taking breaks. I saw some research. I don't know if it was when this was conclusive that people were working longer hours at home than they were when they were in the office, and particularly senior leaders that I was working with, were really tired and exhausted and their teams were too. So how do you even starting at a personal level, how do you manage yourself? How do you know when's enough?
Karin Tenelius
Yeah, yeah. So one thing that comes to mind is meetings, because what people do when they work at home, they are in meetings. And from what I hear, in organisations, the meetings aren't that productive and good. Very many meetings happens. For other reasons for control reporting, reporting is a big thing here. So in a self organised organisation, you don't need to report or you can find other ways to inform each other on Slack or not in meetings, right. And meetings is often like a one and a half hour meeting. And you come out with a to do list, but you never get to the to do list because there's another meeting with another team and another to do list. And then you have a meeting, a similar meeting two weeks later. And the problem is that you never had time to, to go to all your to do list because of all the meetings. Right? So we have two questions, question the meetings, so I'm allergic to meetings that are not empowering. And allergic to meetings that are too long or so they have to be purpose driven. So what why do we meet now? What is the outcome of the meeting that we expect? What are we coming out with from this meeting? And let that rule how long the meeting is. And that means that meetings can be 15 minutes instead of one and a half hour. You who are working in Agile structures knows a lot about this. Also Sprint's which is working together, do the work together not talking about doing the work that like you do in meetings? Right? Yeah. So it's like, really questioning the working structure. And when we do that, ended up with Corona, we sort of took all the meeting structure from the office, where we ran around and attended meeting. Yeah, and that's the same thing as home at home now. Which is insanity. If you asked me Yeah, yeah.
Darius Norell
So that's so that sounds like a really simple I dont' mean this is easy but a simple way to become more effective. Have more time back. I still want to come back to this question, because and this is a personal one for me as well, because I wrestled with how much time to work. Right? And I certainly the last previous year, I've been in a real kind of okay, work, work, work work. I don't think I've ever worked so hard, certainly the first six months of the year. And that was by choice and since I I was choosing to to kind of get a project off the ground and and how do you manage your own level of work? What what, what helps you?
Karin Tenelius
Yeah, I think three things things on the same time, but one, that I try to practice a lot, also in order to expand our organisation and make myself unnecessary is to ask, or I sort of, do I need to do this, who can do this? Who can do this? And of course, when I was a one man, business, nobody but then I found ways and organisation are quite outsourced. It's like people not in the organisation do stuff like administration on an hourly basis, basis and so on. So it's like I, myself, do only stuff that no one else can do. Right? No one else. For instance, I have a too big economic financial department, which is not at all defensible. But it, it helps me to not do what I shouldn't do. Right, which is good. So that's one thing. And the other thing is to really desiccate and look for on what is the source of results? What is it that creates the results we want? Is that really long, long, long working hours? And what do they contain? And me, my, my, me, I had to be really honest about some things I did, which was not necessary. But like, I did it for fun, more, right? Because it was sort of, yeah, it had different functions. For me. It was, like, fun, it was also not so challenging, and sort of calmed me down. So when I, when I acknowledged that, I knew I don't, this is not work, really, you just do this for some other reason. And, you know, reflecting on what I actually did, and why made me do much less.
Darius Norell
Right. So became so it sounds like rather than how I'm holding a little bit, which is a sort of I'm going to call it top down and bottom up. I don't know if this is quite right. I'm coming a bit more top down, like oh, here's all my hours, how do I reduce them? Or kind of get it more manageable? It sounds like you're coming from what is it I really need to be doing? I love that phrase - what's the source of my results - being really rigorous with yourself about Okay, this actually leads to results this doesn't. I'm doing this for other reasons. And almost naturally, sort of doing that work, you become more What's the what's the word? Clear on Okay, this is for me to do, this isn't for me to do. And the work goes down, if I could put it that way.
Karin Tenelius
Yeah. And just stuff I want to get rid of. I am quite creative in finding solutions. Like, like an example here. Writing tenders, I'm really the only one who can do that in my organisation. And I failed to find somebody else around me. So I ended up and it's very, very time consuming. And it doesn't build anything that I do it over and over again. But then I can all of a sudden I spotted when I found when I met one of my son's friends. She was a student in journalism and I spotted that she could write structured and I tried to involve her by the hour as an extra work. And that was like really, really a smash hit of she does checklists, she does a lot that I just give her.
Darius Norell
So that was that so that having that support then frees up your energy around the bits that you're still doing.
Karin Tenelius
Yeah. I can do the most crucial, last stuff, but it cuts down my hours by many, many. Yeah.
Darius Norell
So yeah, so I'm going to play this out a bit further. So I've I've gone to a four day week, right? So that's a way of me building that habit and discipline or getting out of the habit of oh, I need to be working all the time, which I don't think was deep in me, at least not, not innately. But I definitely got into that habit, partly through having this really challenging project, which I've been working on and feel like, okay, I want to give everything to and now trying to step out of that. It's amazing how strong that habit is. So for me, going to four days a week is a really helpful way to externally impose some structure to get back into a rhythm of having time away from work and that being okay, rather than feeling like I should be working all the time.
Karin Tenelius
Yeah. I think also, I've never experienced myself working sort of, I don't I don't call it work because I'm so grounded in that I'm doing exactly the thing that I love to do. Which has never been, that has not always been the case. Because in my 10, first work years, I had, like 32 different jobs had no clue what I wanted to do. And everything seemed to be fun and exciting, right? So you wouldn't believe all this stuff. I did. But then, over the years, I came to an insight of what's really is what I want to do. And it's not like a job description, or it's more than a calling or a mission or like a direction. And the more I followed that direction, and now I'm on it since years. So it's never a question for me, if I'm doing the right thing. Sometimes me and my husband asked ourselves, if we had 100 Millions, what would we do then? Okay, we will do exactly what we do now. Yeah, so that's the control question. So it's not like, I think I'm working, I'm just living. And then I have to make sure that my living has also what we call private life and hope this, but those concepts are quite unfamiliar for me because it's, like, melts together in a good way. So work, does very seldom exhausts me, or take something from me.
Darius Norell
Yeah. I feel I mean, my sense is of just how connected you are to yourself, maybe I don't know that that's emerging in a really lovely way. And I can't have been a little bit jealous, because I'm thinking, I can learn from that. In terms of my own mix, and it's not I mean, I get plenty of time with family and other bits and pieces. But I, I feel that I've lost that. I don't know if balance is quite the right word. But yeah, something. Let's, let's go to a slightly different topic. So the title of podcasts is, what's your work? Which is a play on What's your work in the world that you've described, like I'm living, I love that I'm living and everything kind of just comes together in a way that really is supportive for you. And so I love that picture. And then the other dimension is what's your work? Which is what are you seeing that your is yours to work on growing, developing, what you're working on where your edges, what you can see you grow into what's right for you.
Karin Tenelius
So so how I came, I mean, it, it didn't come as a thing in the conflicts package, you should do this, you know, it took maybe 10 - 15 years to distil and understand what I really love to do, or my direction. And then it was there. And I also support other people in, in distilling, rather than finding the answer, because that's a pitfall of course, but sort of yeah, distinguishing what is my road here or what do I want to contribute? So, what I found also is one of my strengths is, and, and passions is to, to build things to build systems or connect people to accomplish bigger things than they can themselves. So making things happen, that is good, I mean, good things happening, which has to do with leadership, collaboration, that's what my arena is. So, so, I can make more of really good and things happening by spotting people by spotting organisations and connect them in a creative way. That is not so square. Yeah. So that was what that is what I do. By listening also to new things that could be completely I mean, I can listen to new tech things without at all understanding how they work, but what they could do, and then take that and play with it somehow. So it could be it could also be in literature or other cultural fields that you get ideas on how to do things. So I run the business, but I don't see it like, the boring part of business, it's the creative building. And I also engaged in how business could look when they're not the boring, commercial capitalist thing about them, what can they enable? Because I love the business principles and entrepreneurship, because I think that makes things happen and be sustainable. Rather than networking, which I don't I mean, that's nothing wrong with that. But networking has the tendency to be lots of talk, and no, nothing happens. Yeah. So true. And also, not NGOs, which I love NGOs. But I think they have a challenge of getting things done, because of bureaucracy, just chasing money for funding and all that. So I love the business model and way of operating, but I also want to contribute to, to use it in the service of society rather than making money.
Darius Norell
Right? And for you personally, then what what would you say your, from a personal development perspective, what's what can you see? I haven't known you for a long time, but I'm imagining you've grown and changed a lot over the years. What's what's alive for you now as something that you're kind of working on?
Karin Tenelius
Well, what I've learned is to be brave, you know, try things out that you don't think I remember, I was in marketing school when I was 20 something. And there was this entrepreneur lecturing for us a guy, maybe 40, the old guy in my eyes. And he said, he told about how he founded his IT company. And he had this great idea about graph in the box it was called. It was before Excel, I think. And he understood that he couldn't make it in Sweden, without going to the States, because everyone in Europe looked at the states when it comes to tech. So he went to the States with no money and succeeded in ending up in a TV show. And it became a big hit there. And then he made it in Sweden. And yeah, so this story made me realise, ah, I can do anything. It's not. It was like not until then that that age, I, I realised I didn't have to go by the rules by taking a degree, getting a job. I could sort of create something that I wanted. It was like a really big insight for me. So I did and because I'm blessed with thought act, you know, I can act very quickly on on thoughts. Yeah, and then I also bless my laziness and my allergy to do boring things because that's also helped me to keep on track, and take away every must and shoulds that I don't like and find people that love that, like my finance person - Molina who loves taxes and books about taxes - that's her mission.
Darius Norell
Yeah. I love that. So that was that was a really kind of hear that that opening of the possibility of wow, I can create a life that works for me. And then how, and clearly you've done that in incredible ways. Is there something equivalent now that you feel that you're on the edge of in terms of blind spots, pitfalls, kind of what's
Karin Tenelius
Yeah, I think the last couple of years. Also, you know, becoming older and and realising there's an end to working life possibly, although I can end it whenever I want. Then it's also being a bit more, not having the stress of fixing everything there is to fix and finding clever ways of like, if I want organisation or if I want the world to work better, which we all want, and our contribution is to have organisations to work better work life work better with with better managers and better work, better ways of working, then we could choose the organisations that have the best ambitions that like charities and NGOs, and then they can focus on having them working better, because then they will save the world. Right? So efficiency and not so much stress or pressure on that, oh, the time is running out. And it's we are the ones you know, me and my colleagues. No. But we can make so much difference, if but not everything. Yeah. So that makes me calmer. Also, not be in a hurry, right. And growing slowly, you know, and not grow for the sake of being big. Just finding the exact rate the size that you want to have an impact, but not grow, like IKEA, or Coca Cola or so this exhausting thought. But just and it doesn't have to be quick. Yeah. And some people coming into our organisation and just had the conversation today about somebody new that got really frustrated, oh, we should do do do do do this. And that's not how we operate. We want we listen what wants to happen, and that could go very slowly. And it's a completely different way of evolving.
Darius Norell
Yeah, and paying attention and and in a way not getting out of balance, right. Or to or hopefully, that, to me, that's the protection
Karin Tenelius
Be sustainable. And yeah, stable, and not not reacting to all opportunities and big scopes that could make us implode.
Darius Norell
Right. And one of the one of the pictures, I think I mentioned Charles Handy to you, who was kind of a big leadership thinker in the UK. And I was fortunate to have some connections and meetings and breakfast with him. Lovely, lovely man, very generous, spirited with his time. And one of the pictures that he talked about was, if you're an orchestra, your goal isn't to be an orchestra twice the size next year. So in that case, How do we do our?
Karin Tenelius
Yeah, yeah. And also the other week, I was in this great bunch of seven tech guys and one woman. And they are just eight people. And they don't want to be more, but they are so passionate about building better system for the health care system. So they have been very much involved in the test, result, solutions with apps and everything. And they had something like, like 3 million in turnover, and 27 in profit, right? Because they make so much happen. And they don't work, you know, themselves to death either they have a really balanced work life, but they get so much output. So getting that few people doing exactly the right things count, can have so much result without working 40 hours a week.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Well, it's a lovely, that's a lovely, maybe a lovely point to come to is the possibility which which really brings us almost back to the beginning of this promised idea that we don't need to be working 40 hours a week and yet how come we're so entrenched in that set up with that, you know, really at the heart level, I think, what does this world we've created where, you know, if I'm, if I'm an animal, without any education, I can find a way to survive and live. And here we are, we've created something where I've got to, seems to have to work for years and years to really even think about having a place to live and and, and, and and then working so hard for so long. And then having that beautiful example of well, actually there is a way if I'm really clear on what I'm doing to create extraordinarily, in a way that really works. Yeah. So I think it's a lovely, lovely place to stop. So thank you so much for your time this morning. Thank you for having me. It's great to have you and I look forward to continuing our collaborations. Thank you. Thank you.
Okay, that wraps up this episode of What's your work and yeah, looking forward to seeing you on the next one. Until then.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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